General Politics Discussion [ARCHIVED] • Page 205

I'm suspicious of her ability to create policy that would achieve this, but I believe, at least superficially, that she wants that. Trump doesn't give a shit. I'm no fan of hers, but they are not on the same level.

 

I read something recently, I'll link it when I get home...basically the guy said alot of us know which is that third party and independent movements need more traction at the local levels instead of popping up every presidential election. Like, why isn't there more noise for local elections to get green partyers in. I know they exist but that's where the movement needs to start and I'm also for that. Can't expect Jill Stein to suddenly pull an upset and win the general election...

 

It's stuff like this that annoys me, not because of what they are presenting, but what they are not representing. Surveys conducted over 7 months...of how many people? What demographic? Did they interview the same groups every survey? How many surveys?

Just throwing out random numbers and adding 100% to it doesn't make it factual. Pew research does tend to get the benefit of the doubt because of their work, but it's sketchy and not trustworthy.

 

Oh yeah anyone voting Trump to get closer to Bernie didn't like Bernie for the right reasons. Both present themselves as populist and anti establishment, but like, come on

 

It's incredibly hard to make progress from the ground up because of the requirements imposed on third parties. Anyways, there are Missourians who have been working very hard to get the Green Party on ballots here. But it takes a lot of man hours and money to start at any local level before making national ripples.

 

On the other hand, she doesn't necessarily have to believe in the change to know it's necessary to make it. Lincoln and LBJ were two of the most important presidents in terms of advancing civil rights and one was a flagrant racist and the other didn't want to get involved. But a good leader reads the room. She'll want that second term - she'll read the room and the room says "prioritize civil rights". I think the run Sanders gave her for her money has illustrated that. She's a lot of things, but unintelligent isn't one of them.

This isn't to say she does or doesn't have her heart in the cause, mind you. People do grow and learn and change and there's no way to know that for sure. I'm just saying it might not matter. We KNOW we won't get progress with Trump.

 

Also, I don't trust that graphic at all. Only 2% would go to Johnson or Stein? Gimme a break.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/upshot/presidential-polls-forecast.html

This is the only predictor I trust. The methodology behind it is pretty sound.

 

I think it comes down to how big the parties are. Too many people vote party lines and too much party funding goes into races. I'd like to think progressives are probably still better off working to change the party from within rather than building up something new, though the email leak stuff weakens that feeling a little.

 

Here's the methodology if you're interested. In Clinton’s March to Nomination, Many Democrats Changed Their Minds

 

True, she's gonna need real nice approval ratings if she doesn't want to be one term. And I tend to be idealistic, and want my politicians to actually believe in this shit, but maybe that's not realistic.

 

I'm really surprised by how much both of those candidates are pulling in and the complete blindness the GOP and the dems are showing. "Hey these third party candidates are taking in some big numbers...let's stay EXACTLY THE SAME!"

 

how many polls and surveys showing that the contingent of sanders supporters either sitting out or switching to trump is insignificant have to be shared in here before yall believe it lol. just because there are loud people on twitter doesnt mean that they represent a statistically significant portion of his constituency. the worst you can say about them is that they're low turnout.

 

What I'm trying to get a grasp of is what are the means that working class people can meaningfully enact change? We talk about local voting and Capitol Hill protests, but what is realistic given abysmal voter turnout and limited time not spent working?

 

That is certainly an argument to make. It isn't convincing to someone who feels slighted, because the premise is that they'll be responsible for Trump rather than a bumbling campaign and undemocratic party infrastructure alienated people. Alongside the actions of the DNC and the hollow status-quo liberalism of the campaign, it is this pre-emptive rejection of responsibility that I imagine adds fuel to the rage some Bernie supporters feel. It is posed as "being responsible", but the fact of the matter is, it is more along the lines of "ensure we don't fail, even though we look down upon you and the ideals for which you stand". That isn't welcoming. It is just entitlement and emotional blackmail.

 

Make election day a national holiday? Gotta assume more people would vote. Making it mandatory isn't wise but it needs to be easier.

 

Meaning, people have to be more vigilant when it comes to congressional elections since that's who would make this kind of decision.

 

Agree, but even this doesn't resolve the subterrestial levels for local votes aha

 

I guess where we disagree is that I don't view it as a "pre-emptive rejection of responsibility". If Trump wins, anyone who places all the blame on Sanders supporters for not voting/causing trouble clearly needs to look at the bigger picture of why everything went wrong.

I view it as a coworker fucking up at work and you have to step in and save their ass so the company doesn't fail. The ultimate fault lies with the coworker who did the original fuck up, but if you have the opportunity to try and help save the day its the right thing to do.

 

Yep. Systemic failures don't excuse personal negligence.

 

I thought this was a great idea at first, but then I recall this thing called "vacation" and if it means I can get the hell out of dodge for an extended weekend or day, I'll take it.

A better solution would be to extend voting to a 2 day period, that gives individuals flexibility to vote.

 

Also you should be able to vote in any polling station in the state, that it's limited to one you may not live near is a deterrent

 

Look at the "Fight for 15$". That was a local campaign in a handful of places that were able to actively build a movement that has exploded, one which shifted the discourse and made it impossible to ignore their demands, and changed the parameters of what is politically possible in a number of places.

 

or just do mail-in voting like Washington does

 

This is wage specific protests though, right? I agree but I'm also thinking generally. I switched to dem to vote in the primaries but I guess I'll return to independent after this election, but other than separating from the party and refusing to support directly, I'm not sure how to improve that