Accountability in Music • Page 341

I want to be shocked but I've encountered enough racism, misogyny and xenophobia in hospitals (via the doctors) to be surprised by absolutely nothing - and that's without having a predatory rich and powerful father in the mix.

 

I hope she has someone close to her in her life that can tell her she doesn't have to sign that form if she doesn't want to, or sign a new form revoking that privilege if that's what she wants... It's absurd. I feel bad for her.

 

I do too but I mean, there's pretty much no chance it's that simple. She's been groomed for years in this regard and she's been liking tweets lambasting her dad for this - it's clear she's not happy about what's been happening. But this is a very complex dynamic and if she's doing something she's actively aware she doesn't want to be doing "voluntarily" then there's coercion happening (if not worse). Someone who took an oath to "first do no harm" should've reported this years ago, when she was a child.

 

I went back and changed my original wording because it came off like I meant someone else just telling her what to do, which was not my intent. I just meant someone else trying to make her aware that would be an option. I agree with all of this. The part where TI just steamrolls over her having any choice and acts like that's fine and okay actively made me cringe.

 

"actually my teenage girlfriend is 19" is the funniest thing I've ever seen

 

Doctors do terrible things to women all the time unfortunately. On top of your run of the mill not believing us, downplaying our symptoms, refusing to research better medicine and procedures for us...there’s also stuff like “the husband stitch,” doctors drugging and assaulting women, etc. In this case, this fucked up mindset is so prevalent that it could just be that the doctors agreed this was a good thing.

 

My first impression here is to say T.I.'s daughter is being unduly influenced by her famous dad into giving the doctor consent to share results of a pelvic exam with him. It's hard to see how she could help but be unduly influenced -- her dad says he's literally asking her if she has something to hide, and repeatedly telling the world that she's still a virgin. Besides worrying about her dad's reaction, she has to wonder how the public will react if and when he should stop telling the world that she still is.

But if the doctor feels the patient isn't being unduly influenced they might feel the patient can give consent for that information to be shared. That may have happened in this case with T.I.'s daughter since the story says she gave consent for the doctor to tell her dad whatever he told him, that would at least be consistent with what the Madame Noire article's account says.

What is the most unclear though in this whole story, and is consistently unstated in all of the stories I've read on this, is if the doctor really did represent this exam to T.I. as a virginity test. Since it would be highly unethical for the doctor to represent an exam as a virginity test, I'm inclined to question the assumption many people are making that the doctor represented the exam that way to T.I. While T.I. says the doctor has told him her hymen is still "intact" (T.I. Reveals He Goes To The Gynecologist Every Year With Daughter Deyjah To Ensure Her Hymen Is Still Intact) nothing I've read anywhere says the doctor told him this means she's still a virgin, instead they all say that T.I. says this means she's still a virgin without questioning his reasoning.

The main point I'm trying to make here is that the article is mainly saying he's "gross" but it doesn't say one can't infer virginity from a so-called intact hymen, or that T.I. was told that by the doctor. All of the other articles I've read on this particular story closest to T.I.'s genre and his fans are missing that point as well.

While lots of people in social media not connected with the music scene are saying that T.I. can't infer this, it doesn't appear T.I.s fans are getting that message at all. Instead the media that is talking most directly to them seem to downplay what T.I. is doing as not much more than "gross" while implying more about the wrongdoing of the doctor than is obvious from the story.

The most recent peer-reviewed article related to this issue that I could find is this: A survey of honor-related practices among US obstetricians and gynecologists. - PubMed - NCBI The full text is here: International Journal of Gynecology & Obstetrics | ScienceDirect.com and here https://doi.org/10.1002/ijgo.12294 I got a copy of this article but it was from a subscription database, it's worth reading if you are seriously interested in this. The abstract which anyone can access from the first link above is all you really need to read to understand what I'm writing below. I'll include some of the most relevant parts of the abstract below.

Here's the full citation if you want to search for it yourself: Moaddab, A., Mccullough, L., Chervenak, F., Stark, L., Schulkin, J., Dildy, G., Raine, S., Shamshirsaz, A. (2017). A Survey of the Prevalence of Honor-Related Practices Among Obstetricians and Gynecologists. International Journal of Gynecology and Obstetrics. 139(2):164-169.

Here's my impression of the results. First, about 30 percent of the OBGYNs who were sent the survey responded. Since they were members of ACOG (American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, a well-respected professional organization of OBGYNs) and received the survey from ACOG we can assume they're competent doctors who believe they are being held to high ethical standards. Let's take that as a given.

Since only 30 percent of the doctors surveyed replied, I have to wonder if there may be a disproportionately high number responding who had worked on cases involving so-called "honor-related practices" -- exams, restoration, etc. I doubt that nearly 60% of OBGYNs in ACOG overall have provided care to patients who have undergone FGM. While I think a lot of doctors have had to provide some sort of care for women who have undergone FGM, I doubt it's as high as 60%. The results also say that of the respondents about 10% have provided some sort of care for patients who requested virginity testing. The full text of the article says that the 10% provided virginity testing but it doesn't clearly say if they represented an exam as a virginity test or what kind of care they provided.

In any case, this isn't just something that is "heard of", even if there are disproportionately more doctors who responded to this survey that they provided so-called "honor-related" care I'd have to say it's common overall. ACOG and numerous other authoritative professional organizations say in so many words performing "honor-related" procedures like so-called virginity testing isn't ethical. But simply doing a physical exam and reporting the results to parents could be ethical under certain obvious circumstances.

What makes what T.I.'s describing even worse is that it usually seems to be done in the context of providing "honor-related" care, and professional organizations like ACOG say clearly that isn't ethical. It's not illegal though because these examinations can be done just for the purpose of reporting objective physical changes or treating an illness and not implying their results amount to a virginity test.

What Madame Noire and other publications who might reach T.I. fans should be saying a lot more clearly is that T.I. wanting to know the results of his daughter's pelvic exam so he can be assured she's still a virgin is not only unethical but it's recognized to be as unethical as "virginity restoration" and similar "honor-related" procedures. They could cite articles like this showing the medical community backs that up, but instead they are focusing on T.I. being a creepy dad and making it easier to shift suspicion to the doctor involved.

I know that's a lot. But I think it's relevant to share because it's a way to explain how this is wrong, specifically how what T.I. is doing is wrong, a message that I'm afraid is absolutely not reaching T.I. and his fans.

And I hope that's obviously relevant to "accountability in music" -- specifically, how T.I. is not only not being held accountable, it seems he's so far being rewarded for what he chose to openly say to his fans. The media I'm seeing that is closest to his fans is more clearly saying he's at worst a creepy dad than how this is wrong on so many more levels.

 

Lmao like 19 would be so much better. Liam is such a loser.

 

Didn't Liam also have a baby with Cheryl Cole, who was his x factor judge when he was like 15? That's a whole mess of messiness.

 

When I was 19 I knew a couple of girls who were into older guys and scoffed at the idea of dating someone their age. And I couldn't blame them, 19 year old guys can be extremely immature and unattractive.

They're consenting adults, why do you care ?

 

The difference is in the balance of power- it might not be that big of a deal when it’s two normal people (and I’d argue it still is). When it’s a supremely famous older man plucking up a teenager, it’s statistically far more likely he is either actively grooming her OR she feels compelled to say yes due to his fame. He is a public figure and he should be dating people his own age.

 

Sorry, but I think that's incredibly judgemental and reductive.

Assuming that younger women who date older men are powerless victims of abuse / grooming is something I used to hear from the mouths of dumb incels at school and college, who could not comprehend why girls their age would not date them, and that they had free will.

I'm amazed to read that years later, in a "woke" thread.

The "balance of power" is a thing, regardless of fame, and usually is a factor in these "young woman dates older guy" couples, but that does not mean that the relationship is abusive / consists in grooming. I know enough people who wanted to avoid manchilds to know that.

In this particular case, she also is an instagram star (yikes) and not a random girl he picked out of a crowd. What if she comes out publicly to say that she's happy and that it's nobody business ? Would you read between the lines then and still call her a victim, or would you respect her choices ?

Honest question.

 

“A ‘woke’ thread” is not a good look. Do better please

 

maybe not every single young woman who dates older and/or famous men is being groomed, but it is an ever repeating pattern

 

First of all, please do not reduce statistical fact to "dumb incel" logic, because it isn't. Perhaps I should have made myself more clear - the issue is not with the young women, but with the man who is actively seeking the attention of teenagers over women his own age. Yes, if she says she is happy, I respect that, but I can't ever believe in turning a fully blind eye when there are red flags. I did not call her a victim anywhere, I only pointed out that the potential for abuse is there, given the age difference and difference in status/power.

I've been a teenage girl who got special attention from a band member I liked and respected lot. It seemed great at first, until it became clear that I was being taken advantage of by an older man based on my enthusiasm for his band. He liked that he could mold me and that I wanted him to like me so badly that I would let a lot of inappropriate things slide. It took me a really long time to understand the ways in which the power dynamic and age difference were used against me, but at 19 I would have happily told you it was perfectly fine and that I loved it.

It is of course a fine line of trying not to condescend to young women, but making sure that they are making the most informed decision and hearing outside feedback and not just what the older man is telling them. It's a nuanced issue that is complicated by celebrity and fame. It's something I've thought about a lot due to my own experiences and due to hearing about so many of these situations where it turned out a young woman was uncomfortable the entire time. It's a pattern that happens in Hollywood, the music industry, our "unfamous" lives, and it's something that as a society, we should be wary of because we do have a responsibility to protect young people and help them have happy and healthy lives.

 

If I’m reading the timeline correctly, she would’ve been in high school (18) when they were first ever linked. Any man over 20 being in any way involved with a girl in high school will always feel gross to me.

 

Ok but like she was 17 when he first started grooming her so

 

Don't want to post this in the band thread because I'll 100% get attacked for even asking this but was Fireworks connected in some way to the No Good News/Harry Corrigan stuff? I thought I remembered reading that they were friends with Harry or something even after everything came out? I could be mixing them up with someone else though, it's been years at this point. Does anyone have any better recollection?

 

They are close with JJR and supported him through that situation. I actually skipped their last show because I was so upset by it.

 

Ah yeah that must've been it. Thanks.

 

It's such a bummer because I love that band and would love to be excited about this news but when you stand by people actively trying to cover up sexual assault and threatning other bands' careers... there's really not gray area around it. For me at least.

 

Yeah I mean publicly supporting someone like that when they're being (rightly) criticized for helping to cover up an assault is pretty gross. I almost wonder if they'll take his band out on tour with them now.

 

Oh for fuck's sake I totally forgot about this having happened. Gross. I'm not comfortable supporting them in light of this.

 

If anything this story made me realize how old he was, I genuinely thought he was like 20 still because I forget how time works and I didn’t think the age difference was that bad. But honestly yeah it’s side eye worthy at best.

 

They didn't really catch any heat for their association with him because they broke up, so it's kind of uncharted territory how they'll handle that now that they're back. It's been years since that went down, and bands like Real Friends have helped normalize his continued inclusion in the scene by taking Keep Flying on tour. I don't want to come after anyone for things they haven't actually done yet but it seems like something that could happen. Guess we'll see.