Joker (Todd Phillips, October 4, 2019) Movie • Page 42

Yeah exactly. In reality marginalized people get treated badly every day and somehow don’t become mass murderers. Imagine that.

 

Yeah, that's what really left me with a sour taste in my mouth afterwards. Like, the more I think about the ending, the more I hate it.

 

I mean I guess you can take away all of those messages from that statement if you like to infer, but if you go by only what the second paragraph of the statement actually says, the message is just a caution against overlooking and disrespecting mental illness in a time when attention spans are understandably at an all time low.

 

Normalising mass shooters by blaming what they did on poor mental health services and/or abuse is an insult to literally every other person that's suffered from mental health issues and/or abuse, who would never even think for a second to do something so awful.

 

Frozen, and like every other Disney movie, did a better job at showing how childhood trauma can lead to mental health issues and I'm not even joking

 

Maybe the mental health aspects would have been better if the end goal of the film wasn’t always to introduce the Joker, a sadistic mass murderer. It’s not as if this is a film is about the average joe that happens to turn into a psychopath. The story revolves around someone who was always destined to become the Joker. I didn’t get the message of this film being that everyone who has a mental illness or is treated badly will turn into the Joker.

 

Some people, like Michael Moore and that post up above, are talking about this film as if it explains why mass shooters happen.

Most mass shooters have a fixation on violence from an early age. They aren’t abused victims who suddenly “snap” because of outside influence.

 

I work in a public defender's office and a large amount of clients -- especially clients facing charges for violent or sexual offenses -- are black people with severe mental illnesses. To say that mental illness leading to violence is mainly just a toxic white male thing is absolutely beyond me. If anything, what that post gets wrong is limiting its purview. It's just taking the kind of stuff that makes the news and thinking it ends there. 99% of people of all demographics dealing with mental illnesses don't commit violent acts, and among those who do, mass shooting is obviously a fraction of that (and a uniquely American thing bc easy access to death machines etc etc). But that doesn't mean that it's not a problem, nor that it isn't worth acknowledging how failing institutions contribute heavily to this kind of stuff -- the more people fall through the cracks in general, the more likely one of those people are going to end up being a risk to themselves and others.

Whereas these posts seem to be...literally blaming the severely mentally ill, abused man for the violence he causes? If you saw him irl would you really be like "marginalized people are able to cope with their shit every day without becoming violent -- Do. Better."? Because that's very much how these posts come across. If you're going to talk about mental illness, but then bring in words like "blame" or "become" or even "think," then you're speaking as if the mentally ill person actually does have control over that (which if you want that to be your stance then go ahead, I guess...). You could argue that mass shooters or specific violent offenders aren't mentally ill and are therefore culpable, but as these posts are right now you're just doing a lot of conflating.

 

Forgot to quote so - @Marx&Recreation

Bold of you to assume that as a woman I haven’t been touched by the violence of a mentally ill white man, and that I would react in the same way that I’m reacting here in an online forum discussion about a movie.

ReAlLy MaKeS yOu ThInK

Also like...yes, yes I am blaming the “severely mentally ill and abused” man for the violence he caused. The fuck?? That’s my entire point. I have endured shitloads of abuse and am severely mentally ill myself and never fucking once turned to violence as a coping mechanism. So miss me with that bullshit that says that mental illness is somehow an excuse. Mental illness explains behavior but it does not excuse it, thus, yes he absolutely is to blame here. Being mentally ill still means you have to be responsible for your actions, the fuck?? Especially if those actions hurt others.

Should systems do better? Not let people fall through the cracks? Absolutely no one would argue that. That much is obvious af. But it’s a huge, insane, step to say that because of that, it makes acts of violence inevitable or worse, not the fault of the person perpetuating them.

Also “to say that mental illness leading to violence is mainly just a toxic white male thing is beyond me”
I explicitly didn’t say white there, but nice try..I said mental illness BEING EXPECTED TO lead to violence is a toxic masculinity thing which is 1000% true because women are not committing these crimes OR being seen as inevitable if they were to.

 

So a year ago right around this time I had a breakdown out of what felt like nowhere. It wound up being life changing but at the time absolutely everything was a gut punch. There was a day some time during the holidays when my son was watching Frozen for the millionth time and for some reason it just hit me how much of that movie was an allegory for depression. I was sitting there watching in tears even though I’d seen it so many times before. When Anna shows up at Elsa’s ice palace and says “Please don’t shut me out again” while Elsa just spirals inside her mind with “I’m such a fool, I can’t be free,” well...that really broke me.

 

Bonus Reel: Joker & Taxi Driver, episode #MINI 2 of Unspooled on Earwolf

This was kind of a frustrating conversation because Paul Scheer often contradicts himself. But I think critic Amy Nicholson makes a great point about Todd Phillips being too wishy-washy with the movie's attempt at faking out the audience.

She points out that the first time we see Fleck on the Murray talk show, it's clearly a fantasy (to the audience) because of how it's lit and presented. But it's not that way when he hangs out with Zazie Beetz or anything other nebulous parts that could be construed as fantasy.

 

Are you seriously saying here that women don’t commit violent crimes?

 

Are you seriously saying you read all of those paragraphs and what you got from it was that I ...dont..think.. women commit violent crimes??

Like honestly that irks me beyond belief but to answer your ridiculous question: no, I’m not a fucking idiot. We are specifically talking about mass shootings and killing rampages a la the fucking joker in case you forgot what thread were in

 

It’s a good job, because that would be a pretty nonsensical thing to think.

 

Idunno, I feel like there are definitely certain mental illnesses that will directly cause violent behavior. It doesn't mean everyone who deals with even extremely severe mental illness will be violent, but personally I definitely would not go with the tack that every mentally ill person who commits a violent act consciously made the choice to do so and so should be held completely responsible for their actions. I think if we acknowledge that even mild mental illness can effect behavior in mild ways, it follows that in certain cases of severe mental illness will cause severe aberrant behavior. Hell, I've seen family members become total assholes, complete change in personality to combative and violent, because of side effects of medications that weren't even for mental illness. Another relative has addiction issues and a severe personality disorder to the point where they go from completely quaint and harmless to straight up dangerous to be around when untreated. I definitely would not use the language of "choice" or imply that there was any forethought in the way my relatives behaved because of these things.

The conversation with mental illness and mass shootings is ridiculous because most of them are not mentally ill and almost all of them are misogynists or racists or otherwise radical right wingers, but the idea that mental illness is completely detached from violence is similarly ridiculous to me. As is, based on all accounts, the idea that this movie has anything interesting to say about mass shooters lol

 

I didn’t assume anything. I said that’s how your posts come across. Which they do.

Under what logic does mental illness explain behavior but not excuse it? If someone would not have done something *but for* their mental illness, then that is literally a reasonable excuse. It removes or at least mitigates culpability. Saying “I have mental illness but *I* never did anything bad” is an incredibly conservative point which, again, if you want to make it then fine, but I profoundly disagree

 

I'm confused why some people seem to think that just because their mental illness doesn't cause them to do violent things, that someone couldn't have a totally different mental illness from them that does contribute to it, mixed with environmental factors and upbringing, of course.

If all mental illness were the same, we wouldn't need people to try a million different prescription drug combos until they find the right one for them.

Everyone has different life experiences and are even affected differently from similar experiences.

 

I honestly don’t have enough words to explain how deeply and personally I’ve been affected by a severally mentally ill turned violent man.

I think it goes without saying that anyone who thinks it’s ok to commit mass amounts of violence is not mentally healthy.
I’m certainly not trying to make the argument that those severely mentally ill are able to consciously make these decisions, but REGARDLESS yes they absolutely need to held accountable for it?
We already do this in society which is why we send people to mental health facilities rather than prison when they are deemed not guilty by insanity. That’s still holding them responsible.

 

I don't think anyone in here said that the violent person shouldn't be held accountable for it?

 

Someone who kills people does not get any excuse. Ever. Your mental illness explains why it happened but does not change that lives were lost. No one gets an excuse. You can be more understanding of the situation and take it into account when sentencing or handling the situation, but it doesn’t mean you get off scot-free for your actions??

I was using *I* to speak personally, as someone els already said above you could replace *I* with the MILLIONS of other mentally ill people in this country who DONT commit acts of mass violence.

 

I guess I took it that way because people are literally saying that being mentally ill “mitigates culpability” and arguing with my original statement that despite being mentally ill you still need to be held accountable bc it’s an explanation not an excuse.
At the end of the day I don’t want to go around about it, but the beginning posts *do* appear to take the accountability off the person and put it onto “the system” or whatever

 

I think the miscommunication is that a lot of people see accountability or responsibility and assume you mean engaging with them on the assumption that they can control their behavior. Like, taking responsibility for your actions, to me, implies that you controlled them. I would personally just say treatment or help in that context but if that's what you mean then I get you.

And I think the first thing that made me think something similar to what Marx&Rec is trying to say here is the "don't blame mental illness, tons of people are mentally ill and don't commit violence!" posts. While that is obviously true, it is certainly also true that lots of mentally ill people do commit violence. And while it is absolutely evil to generalize and associate all mental illness with violence, I think it is similarly harmful to people who might be violently mental ill to act like the violence and mental illness could never be linked. Which, maybe that's not what people meant when they say that, but I don't think others are being ridiculous to have read that into it.

None of this, of course, is in any way trying to prescribe how any victim of violence should feel about their abuser, obviously.

 

Do you genuinely think I or anyone else means “not being culpable” is the same as “getting off scot free” and getting to go just home and continue with your life? You’re aware that a finding of insanity means you get sent to a facility rather than prison, but “guilty by insanity” is categorically *not* a thing. It’s NOT guilty *by reason of* insanity. It is literally an excuse for your actions. Nobody is saying it means your actions did not happen and that nothing should be done as a result of it, but it does mean that nobody is *blaming* you for it.

 

“The insanity defense refers to a defense that a defendant can plead in a criminal trial. In an insanity defense, the defendant admits the action, but asserts a lack of culpability based on a mental illness.

The insanity defense is classified as an excuse defenserather than a justification defense.”

Insanity defense

 

Funny enough, a version of this movie w/ all mental health elements removed (directed by not the Hangover guy) could've had something interesting to say about mass shooters. The end of the movie, when Arthur goes full Joker, is good stuff, albeit it a bit unrefined (hilarious that his short rant before pulling the trigger literally includes "a society" in it), but hey, it's a comic book IP. I especially like that he claimed to not be political. In a way, the incoherence of the politics itself is a good reflection of how that kinda thing works. The problem is, that whole mental health angle completely ruins that, in addition to being problematic for actual people dealing w/ mental health struggles.