Accountability in Music • Page 319

Because there are times when it's been far more than just actions or words being called out, where it's gotten very personal, where people have been ganged up on, and off, this website.

I have. Quite a few times. I've seen people mocked and called names for things they once said, no matter how much they've tried to change or grow as person. And it's clear from multiple people posting in this thread that they also have seen, or felt this way. And there's people, even right now, that have reached out to me that don't want to say anything in this thread. Hell, I started this conversation with Anna and Kayla yesterday in a place where I felt safe for this very reason. Because I am afraid of fumbling through something the wrong way in public and not having a belief in a good faith discussion about it.

This is arguing against a different argument though, and not the one that was brought up as the catalyst. Calling someone out for doing something problematic is a lot different than the issues that started this discussion, and where those feelings came from.

 

I haven't seen anyone putting people who are honestly trying to engage with these issues in good faith into the same category as the bad faith actors. Not once, whether it's in here or elsewhere, and I've seen a great many of these types of conversations take place. Like many have said today and like many have said in the past, what someone does or needs to do in their private time is their own business. Nobody should feel ashamed for doing something like pirating BN's music or even streaming it on Spotify or something; the artists don't see much from those streams anyway. It's your own prerogative. Do what you need to do to get through the day.

But far too often people on this site go further and continue trying to talk about these artists, or just their art, in positive terms following allegations of abuse. And yeah, not everyone is educated from the start. Totally understandable. But the default setting for far too many people is to defend these artists from being criticized by either redirecting conversation to the music or by directly attacking the people trying to raise awareness. And I get that not everyone is wired the same way and people react to that kind of news differently, it's possible for someone to mess up royally and need to be educated in less-than-polite terms. And if those people accept the criticism and learn and don't repeat the mistake, they deserve a second chance. Keyword: second.

There are far too many people on this site who are on their third, fourth, fifth, tenth, twentieth, etc. time "making a mistake" and honestly I'm sorry but I'm not here for that. If someone screws up and apologizes and is a positive voice in the community from then on then that's great and I support them 100%. But I don't have the patience to go through it more than once with any given person, nor should I or anyone else for that matter. And the fact that I see a lot of those kinds of people in here liking posts like nohandstoholdonto's (which is not their fault by any means) is frustrating because I know they are trying to twist the words in that post to suit their own ends. I've seen it happen before. It's happening in here too.

So honestly I'm really confused by everything I've read in here yesterday and today. I'm struggling to understand why, for example, someone who describes the Pinegrove allegations as "a messy personal relationship" is liking posts saying we need to be more sympathetic to good faith actors. That person is demonstrably not a good faith actor after having doubled down on that incredibly problematic statement more than once.

I'm not trying to make anyone uncomfortable who hasn't done something to warrant it, and if I have done so then I'm sorry. But when I say something like "ESH doesn't deserve his platform back" or "JL is a monster who should be exiled from society forevever", I'm just talking about that artist, not passing judgment on anyone on this site for privately listening to them. When I tell someone that they're glossing over allegations or call someone out for being an abuse apologist, I am only talking to that specific person or persons, not anyone else who isn't involved, or is lurking, or is trying to engage in good faith. I would never attack someone trying to work out their feelings in good faith and/or trying to better themselves or be educated.

In the end, I don't know what the solution to the problem Dylan brought up earlier is. I can put a disclaimer in my posts as a reminder of how I feel about this issue if that would help. Other than that I'm at a loss.

 

This isn’t what was happening in here yesterday. At least not in the conversation I was a part of. It wasn’t about praise, and not even (for me, wont speak for anyone else) about fearing getting “cancelled” for listening to problematic artists. I mean, I don’t listen to BN or PG anymore and haven’t since the allegations came out. The conversation I was having with some others was strictly and solely about how bands like that can still occupy part of our mind and our thinking, even if we’ve consciously decided to let them go. It was about the ongoing struggle to sever ties with artists we spent years, sometimes decades loving. And it felt like that *specific* conversation got a hostile response, and why I felt the need to go on the defensive.

 

I'm not talking about what happened yesterday. I'm talking about the original conversation, which was about how good faith actors often feel uncomfortable about the language used when the bad faith actors are getting called out.

I said in my post I never attack people engaging in good faith and I meant it.

 

Okay well I guess we’ll just chalk that up to me not seeing it despite being an active participant in this thread and website. If people are being ganged up off this website how would anyone here in this thread even know that? Like my post is explicitly about the conversations happening within this thread and the past few days. I didn’t think I had to add the disclaimer that I don’t think it’s okay to harass someone or take something off-site.
I understand your fear but at the same time I really don’t because you HAVE fumbled through things the wrong way in the past and you WERE called out and then, I like to think, tried harder/did better. And no one wrote you off or “cancelled” you.
I honestly think this type of argument is a weird straw man not too far off from “guys just are afraid to say anything to women anymore because it will just be taken as sexual harassment!” Like to me it’s the same line of thinking.
Yes there’s always going to be a FEW users who respond with disagreement or hostility but acting like this website hasn’t been a place for people to actively make mistakes and better themselves and be widely still accepted, is patently false.


That last part of my post was about specifically posts like leerkats being ignored. So no it’s not about a different argument, just more of a continuation from my previous post about their post.

 

See, I feel like so much of the argument in here this morning has been a product of miscommunication and misunderstanding, because I literally had to go back several pages to remember/find what you’re talking about here. And maybe that’s my bad, because all of my posts in the past like 12 hours are only about that specific conversation I mentioned. So much has happened in here that I literally forgot about the original conversation. So if the people I perceived as showing aggression to me today were mostly talking about that, I should apologize, because I misread what was going on

 

I can't speak for anyone else but me.

 

I know that, but at this point it seems like none of us know entirely what we’re arguing about, so I’m just trying to get some clarity.

 

I don't know what to tell you beside I, and many others, have seen it, and are saying we've seen it in this thread. And, I know at least a few people in this thread know about it because I've seen it posted in other threads they're in. Including, if memory serves, this one itself at least once or twice.

I don't know what to say if you don't understand my, or anyone else's, fear of an actual good faith discussion. It's real even if you don't understand it. Multiple people have tried to explain it and talk about it, and that it is being denied as a real emotion people are feeling, is something I don't know how to respond to. I will say that my privilege of, well, literally owning this website, offers me protection in a way many of the people talking about this do not have. So, when I'm saying I don't trust a good faith discussion in certain settings and situations, I do so knowing I can handle just about anything thrown at me after 20 years of being online, on my own website, and therefore I can absolutely emphasize with people who feel similarly that do not have that built-in-protection. I don't know how to talk anymore about something multiple people are saying is their truth, and what they feel and are seeing and how it's actively hurting them, if it's not accepted as happening.

 

...I literally just said we’ll chalk it up to me not seeing it so I don’t know what you expect me to say here.
I’m not at all denying that it’s a real feeling other people fear, in fact I directly said I understand that fear. But I also said that, as owner with that privilege you just described, you’ve been given plenty of grace to make mistakes so I don’t know.

The only thing I said “isn’t happening” is people being outright cancelled or ostracized over one wrong conversation or mistake (particularly “in good faith”) I’ve never seen that happen and I’m all ears for any specific examples anyone wants to bring up. I also specifically said, again, that I’ll chalk it up to me not seeing it happen so please do not imply that I’m “not accepting it as happening”

 

I am honestly trying to empathize with the situation and where you are coming from. I can see where that comment in various contexts could be seen as lessening or discrediting, I just personally, based on the facts and cloudiness that has been laid out, after asking multiple times for more context or understanding of the situation, and being told it's none of my business and it doesn't matter what transpired, don't feel comfortable labeling it with any specificities beyond a messy personal relationship. (Which is a vague description that could be applied to anything from an unhealthy toxic relationship to various levels of abuses...in my opinion.... because I sincerely have no idea what went down)

I am not at all trying to take away or lessen the severity of issues. Maybe it's a semantics issue. I'm not sure what else would be satisfactory given the clouded situation.

I understand you believe me to be a bad faith actor and that I don't have a right to like posts from people who are wanting resolutions moving forward, but I don't think that is constructive or a fair representation of my beliefs when I've tried to be nothing but civil and understanding.

 

People have told you where to look. Go read the Skylight thread from back last fall. You choosing not to do the work is not on me. For at least the tenth time, stop calling it a messy personal relationship.

In the interest of not derailing this thread, I’m not engaging with any of the other statements in this post.

 

well this thread has become impossible to read without being triggered so I will never open it again

 

I don't think anyone said it was over one wrong conversation, or mistake, but instead a feeling that this thread, and others, can put off. I'll quote from the original post again:

I really just don’t think it’s doing the good that some of y’all think it is to simply write off or shame anyone who decides to talk about the band’s music. There are times where, yes, it’s beneficial to be curt and take hard stances, but far too often I’ve seen it used in a way (especially by men, and ESPECIALLY by white men who end up taking up far too much real estate in these discussions tbh) that’s in its own way harmful and borderline abusive.

And:

I think it’s gross and very far from what this thread was supposed to be (or maybe just imo *should be* to use this thread as a place to take shots at other members of the site, however veiled they may be.

The was User XYZ actually canceled and do they deserve the continual attacks they get discussion, I think, is less important than the discussion about the chilling effect that it has had on multiple members of the community, as evidenced by their posts, like the quoted and many, many others.

 

I liked that original post. Why? Because I agree with the majority of it. I don’t feel that anything that I said contradicts nohands’ post.

I also never once implied that anyone deserved continued attacks they are getting so what “discussion” are you pointing to? Not the one you and I aren’t having.

I feel like you’re genuinely twisting what I’m saying in order to be defensive about it and I don’t know what else to say other than we don’t need to do this back and forth. It’s also frustrating to feel that huge chunks of my posts or whole posts are ignored in favor of this defensive approach.

 

Just a suggestion:

What if we keep this thread up only for posting allegations, updates on allegations and any other news but with no commentary? And have the commentary/working out feelings happen in the band thread for whatever artists pop up in this thread. Maybe add a a couple new women moderators like @Mary V if she’s up for it

 

Hard agree here

 

I think thats tough because if people relegated their discussions only to specific band threads, some discussions may never cross which could lead to someone maybe not having a helpful conversation with someone who wouldnt necessarily be in that other bands thread if theyre not a fan.

Ideally one common space is the scenario that ....i wont say works best bc look at this ... but this type of thread for allegation posting and further discussion would be the ideal situation if it could be, for lack of a better term, figured out?

 

First, I appreciate the time that you took to write this out and come at it from an educational standpoint. I think a lot of the discussion that has taken place in this thread has been good and despite talk of topic derailment and tone policing I believe that everyone sees this thread as something that's really important.

I've spent the last hour digging back through the entire Pinegrove thread since September 2018, and upon re-reading all of the back and forth, I can completely understand how taxing it can be for the same people to answer the same questions (like mine) about who did X and what's the latest on Y. I also constantly need to remind myself online that people come from emotional places because they have different experiences, and situations that aren't as top-of-mind for me often conflict with others' personal stories.

As a way to give a more tangible understanding to @BoldTitan and the "there's more" on the Pinegrove situation... in addition to a forum member personally vouching for another abuse victim, here is a Twitter thread with a clear claim that the band hasn't addressed:

In the interest of suggesting something actionable: it would be advantageous to every good faith poster in this thread -- the folks who are sick and tired of re-explaining the same situations over and over + the folks who come in and are legitimately trying to learn about different situations -- to keep the Accountability Google Doc on first post of this thread updated for questions that continue to come up around high-profile incidents. I realize that this comes off as asking others to "do the work for me", but it's meant as a suggestion to save a lot of time and energy without forcing some of the users who legitimately want to educate people on bad actors communicate the basics of an incident without having to re-traumatize themselves.

I apologize if any of the language I've used in this thread has been incorrect or felt like tone policing. I agree with @yung_ting's point that this is all on a spectrum. I also agree with the general sentiment of people drawing their own line when it comes to problematic art, and asking questions is an important part of finding that line. I personally haven't listened to Pinegrove since the allegations -- their music doesn't sound the same after knowing something like that -- but my earnest attempt to find out the latest with ESH to deepen my understanding of how he's being accountable for his actions was definitely dismissed. And again, I recognize that this is like month 10 of people re-explaining things. It goes back to my suggestion for having constantly referenced information readily available.

I appreciate that the bad faith users exist, and I've obviously seen them across the forums. IMO bad faith people should be banned if they're not actively trying to learn and contribute to this thread.

As someone who's learned a lot more than I ever thought I would about power dynamics within entertainment spaces, it would be useful if some of the materials and articles that have been written specific to the music scene were included in the OP. You DM'd me this great piece that Anna wrote, which I'm sure I've read a few times over the last 9 months but do not have saved. There are other resources that I remember reading in the wake of JL that would be good places for people to start. The idea of having this as a central resource is a strong and easy step for people who want to participate in this conversation.

I know that Reddit isn't thought of particularly highly around these parts, but I also like some of their "rules" on the side of certain subreddits that lay out the context for participating in a discussion. This is something that's easily adaptable and inclusive to the OP. It could also be a good project to help new people to the thread understand boundaries, as well as make it easier to moderate a thread with such difficult subjects.

Apologies to everyone for coming off like some random dude telling you what to do, and I'm sure I'm not the first to offer these types of suggestions. That is not my intention. I genuinely care about the Chorus/AP community and think this conversation is important, which is why I'm trying to help. I can't speak for everyone, but in my case, it's certainly not apathy.

 

I legit have no idea what’s going on anymore in here, I’m out. This thread is broke

 

Anger here is is justified, topics like abuse/coercion/grooming should make people angry. So no one should be questioning that aspect. And I have a hard time with assuming peoples anger over these subjects is performative. Like, who is the arbitrator of who is really upset and who's being performative?"

But I also learned the hard way from 4 years of therapy for anger management that this idea I had in my head of me getting justifiably angry about my trigger, lashing out verbally at the person causing it, and expecting it to make me feel better/them to learn anything was probably not realistic. Which fucking suuuuuucks.

How do you reconcile those two true statements? No fucking clue. I'm not going to tell anyone to not yell at some one for bad faith arguments or intentional ignorance cause the anger they're feeling is real and justified. But that doesn't make it productive.
But none of us are being paid, so how productive it is isn't anyone elses business really.

 

What exactly is the claim here?

 

Dude, every conversation based around this band, you insert yourself in.

You posted bullshit in the Pinegrove thread for months.

No one is spewing support for this band in here. Every bit of information surrounding this band you were given already in the original thread and you chose to complain about the people providing info on it.

 

Yeah, be as mean as you want to that dude. He deserves it at this point lol

 

Meeting adjourned