Accountability in Music • Page 315

After Jesse Lacey's allegations, i'll never put anyone on the same pedestal ever again. What a hard fucking lesson.

 

It can be hard, though. I want to believe the artists I support are good people, you know? And there’s something exciting about falling in love with the people in addition to the tunes. But you’re right. Anyone is capable of abuse, which is such a sad but necessary lesson to learn.

 

Since they're putting out a new record in October - maybe I need reminding but are there allegations against anyone from Cigarettes After Sex? Feel like their name came up in this context a while ago.

 

the culture around this stuff can get really toxic. ive had to withdraw from the thread a bit to stop myself from saying something i might regret. i wish it felt more welcoming to have an open dialogue sometimes. but i get it, the bad faith trolls makes it really really hard to have that kind of patience so its hard.

 

Yeah I was gonna mention that, it looks like the tweet was deleted but the text is still here
Greg Gonzales of Cigarettes After Sex Accused of Groping • chorus.fm

also
Cigarettes After Sexism: The Shy-Boy Misogyny of Indie | BULL

 

I honestly thought the front person was a woman, the more you know.

 

You’re probably thinking of Diet Cig

 

I had to look that up, solid stuff

 

Diet Cig dropped an ACAB on stage in middle Ohio last weekend

unproblematic fave

 

I apologise that this will be rambling

To me, the aggressive posts in this thread and elsewhere aren’t the problem. Because I understand and feel that very same anger. We’re furious at the systems put in place that have allowed things to get to this point. The fact that older bands like Aerosmith and Led Zeppelin, with members who have done heinous things and heralded as legends has proved that if you have a platform and you’re a straight white male with money and powerful friends, you can get away with anything.

A man who stalked, raped and murdered a 22-year-old woman in Melbourne as she walked home last year may avoid spending the rest of his life in jail. He might have the opportunity for parole and reoffend. Where is the justice in that? He doesn’t deserve to ever live in society again — right or wrong, that’s my view. That’s the only way I (and maybe a number of other survivors) will feel safe. We live in a world where survivors are supposedly “asking for it” or even “had it coming.” I can’t distil my anger, so I understand when others can’t either.

Peaceful protest only works for so long. Soon enough, not only are we ignored, but we’re told to chill and just enjoy the music, that SJWs are ruining everything, meanwhile they’re continuing to enable a broken system that does a lot more harm than good. Maybe my view here comes from the way I grew up, the things I’ve seen and experienced, and what my friends have been through. Yep, I believe that someone who abuses their platform deserves to lose it. I just don’t want to express myself publicly because I know it’s harsh and I know I don’t forgive a lot of people in music for a ton of stuff. I don’t want to come across as a psycho bitch.

Also... I don’t have the energy to fight these battles when I want to. I can’t do it. But i am filled with rage when someone pops into a thread to inform others about allegations and instantly, there’s album rankings instead, or saying something mind-boggling like “one allegation per page!” I do wish people stopped listening to abusers. The best way to show that we believe this isn’t okay is to strip away their streams, no more monetary support, and no public support online. Show that we don’t care about them anymore. They don’t deserve to make music anymore when thousands of beautiful people are busting their asses, broke, trying to make a career, while Jared fucking Leto just has all of it swept under the rug. It makes me sick. So, to see some men fighting, albeit aggressively, means a lot to me. At least they care. At least they’re fighting for survivors, and not another mediocre indie band. I’m not justifying aggressive behaviour. I simply understand it and don’t think it’s the real issue.

The real epidemics are apathy, and enabling broken systems. Enough with sweeping it under the rug. Enough ignoring it. No more pedestals. I don’t have a solution. I’m just really upset that all these abusers get to come back, no worries at all, and maybe even writing songs about the people they’ve irrepably hurt.

I am not perfect. I was sexually harassed for months a few years ago. I was a minor and he was in his twenties. I could’ve reported it. I should have. Now, it’s too late. I no longer have the proof of everything that happened, and it would be my word against his. He probably still has photos of me. He’d say that I willingly sent and accepted photos. And I did. My thought process at the time would mean shit. Meanwhile, if he’s done this again with more girls, I have to live with that. Now, I can only protect survivors as much as I can, and help them find some peace.

 

I think this is one of the best, most important conversations we've had here, no matter what side of the fence you may be on. It's not an easy conversation either. Respecting both sides will lead to better outcomes and discussions I feel.

 

Thank you for this and all of your vital contributions to this discourse. I know a lot of these ideas have been put forward before, but you’ve given me a lot to consider.

 

and I want to reiterate that I think a lot of the time when it seems like being people are too "extra" or "aggressive" it's because as you said nothing is in a vacuum and the world can be a shitty place and make you angry,and even though something specific may not be a big deal there's a lot of pent up shit

 

I think the entire conversation today has been good

 

What exactly does a post like this accomplish? Mary's post was wonderful and insightful, and she definitely deserves praise for it, but you could have said it without taking away the legitimacy of the rest of the conversation. Just because you might disagree does not make these bad posts.

 

I just feel like aggression, condescending behaviour, etc. is a last resort. I certainly won’t tell someone to go fuck themselves unless their behaviour continuously shows that they’re totally apathetic towards survivors. Is swearing at someone a bad thing? Probably. But there’s always a build up to these conflicts

 

Aliens could not more obviously be the subject of this discussion.

 

I personally really can’t overstate how much I value having a space where I can work through uncomfortable feelings and have difficult conversations. There is a clear and obvious difference between that and someone being willfully obtuse, trolling, or refusing to engage in a productive way.

 

This. And the dismissing of this sentiment (especially since it's been expressed by primarily LGBT, POC, and women) and lumping it in with rape apologists is gross.

 

Some of us can be better about not escalating, obviously, but it would be great if there wasn’t openly dismissive talk to shut down conversations about accountability in the different threads going forward.

 

I'm not sure what you're inferring here.

 

I think that there are many ways in which toxicity manifests and all of us hold the capacity to contribute to it and all of us do at times.

 

I dont think this. In fact two posts ago I pointed out how it misses the point by jumping to that conclusion.

 

Yeah, that post is a pretty extreme oversimplification of what (I think) most of us in here today are trying to communicate and I’d argue a pretty disingenuous way to dismiss what has been a helpful and productive conversation for a lot of people

 

If most of what you contribute here is snark, snide remarks about posters, and not actually helping the discussion, then you need to be contributing less. It shouldnt matter that you're sending that snark in the "right direction" or whatever. It's not helpful to accountability or educating people so it shouldnt have a place in this thread.