Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (Zack Snyder, March 25th, 2016) Movie • Page 13

That I think I agree with to some degree, the Man of Steel execution of the idea (can't think of a better word) is poorly conceived at best. I think the overarching point about the morals of Superman's decision to kill, or need to kill, or inaction that leads to death is, however, the interesting one to me. And one I think deserves more credit than the "if Superman kills he's not Superman" sort of stuff.

Just like that one quote goes, something like, "there's no ethical consumption in capitalism," I think there's an interesting thought experiment around the ethics of Superman. The decisions he makes, the indecisions, and what pressure that amounts to. I think that the trap of "well he's better than us, he's Superman!" ends up instead being an argument of "don't write difficult stories for him" — because it effectively says that if you put him in a no win scenario, you've failed as a storyteller, and I think that's unfair to authors. Not every Superman story needs to effectively become a take on Sophie's Choice, but if the fans demand dues ex machina to solve literally every moral issue no matter what in a Superman tale, I think that's a disservice to the character and to rigorous and interesting moral debate. I think it adds weight to Superman's sacrifices and makes his choices more interesting. Where he spends his time matters, because a minute here means a minute not somewhere else, and that means someone is probably dying due to that decision. I think that's fascinating on an almost Biblical level.

Same with Batman, and his turn to more and more brutal violence. His turn toward the villain and what it takes to save him from his BatFamily I usually find to be interesting stories. I don't look to Batman as a moral compass but so often as a reflection of the tool society has demanded of him. Why does he do what he does after all these years? Is there reprieve? Is his future set in stone like the paranoid stories of Kingdom Come or Returns? Is there better for him? Does he have to become the (k)night. The pain behind the mask, the man, and his attempts to alleviate it with more pain. These are things that draw me to Batman even when he represents things I truly don't agree with. (It's the debate I think was handled in far too passing of a hand wave in Daredevil and that I wish went deeper.)

(Side bar: these are also things I wish The Flash and Arrow would touch on more. I mean, I'm still liking The Flash and watching when I can (and I am caught up on Arrow even though I don't like it as much this season), but there are ethical ramifications of what they're doing on that show they just ignore because it's a light/fun kind of romp. One example: They are imprisoning people in solitary confinement with no trial, no jury, no sentencing, and in a downright cruel manner. To me, that's fucking dark — but it's not discussed, it's just winked away by Grant's amazing smile.)

Now, all that said, it's clear neither Snyder or Goyer are capable of giving us these discussions or nuance or the heart needed to make it work. But I like the idea of it being open and not closed off more than anything. But the more I think about this specific movie, the more I am at least glad there are avenues for different takes on superheroes. The Marvel template, to me, seems so transparent now that it almost reads like a machined script punched up with some jokes. It's fine, it's fun, I like them. But I dunno, I'm left for want.

 

Haha. Yeah, I dunno. There's a lot more to dislike than like, and more than anything it's got me wishing for more, wishing for what it could be. But I'm let down by this in different ways than I'm let down by other movies. Between this and Daredevil I'm just itching for something so much more right now and feel unfulfilled. I'm not even that excited for Civil War because I feel like I already know exactly how they're going to play this right down to the jokes they'll use, but it will probably be very critically praised, and it'll keep that machine churning.

Younger Jason is probably quite pissed that after a childhood wanting these kinds of movies to be made, now they're basically all we get and even the movies that aren't superhero movies are basically just the same kinds of plots with other characters, and I'm still not quite happy. Or only happy in small doses. I keep hoping a comic book movie will try something so different that it'll shake things up, I think that's why I wanted this to actually be a critical and box office success (targets have it at a $165m opening now, so I guess it still may be a success).

 

I couldn't agree with this more if I tried. Supergirl has gotten into it a bit which was a pleasant surprise. But it's my top bullet on The Flash season 3 wishlist. I think it'd make for a great crossover event that could be used to explore both Iris and Laurel's position. Iris would have no choice but to report on it and it would put Laurel in a spot where she really has to figure out how to reconcile being a vigilante while trying fiercely to uphold the law and legal system.

 

This is something I wish they covered more in both series, because I truly don't understand Laurel's motives or decision making sometimes. It truly is confusing as hell to me what they decide to write has as week to week.

I think the journalistic angle with Iris would be great as well. I don't think they know what to do with that character at the moment.

 

Saw it. Didn't love it, didn't hate it. Didn't like Eisenberg in this but I did like Affleck as Batman.

 

All those lines about "this area is abandoned" or "the workers are luckily at home for the night" were inadvertently funny.

Also, weren't all the dead people killed by bullets? Why did they think it was superman? I may have missed some lines due to a guy hacking up his lungs next to me and the family in front of me who brought an infant who cried off and on the first half of the movie before they finally took the kid out of the theater.

 

For the most part, I've been happier with Laurel this season and last. I wish we got to see more of her found family relationship with Thea that we started seeing early on. But I still don't think they know what to do with that character anymore. Seems like she was always supposed to be Oliver's endgame and without that relationship being a main focus the have no vision for her.
And Flash definitely doesn't know what to do with Iris which is such a shame because Candice Patton is great. Even Caitlin can't seem to exist without a romantic plot line. BerlantiVerse just doesn't know what to do with their women which is why I'm so (pleasantly) surprised by how they write Sara on Legends and Kara and Alex on Supergirl.

 

Ryker's ready for Batman v. Superman

 

I don't get why Snyder drew from the Dark Knight Returns and the Death of Superman, stories about a Superman at the end of his career, for his Superman's second outing. He's been Superman for less than 2 years. We've seen him in one movie. When Superman dies in Death of Superman it was huge because of the history with the character. The whole world mourned because he had always been their hero. These citizens barely got to know him.

 

This bugged me as well.

I also think they went too old Bats/Bruce too fast as well. It was ok here for the dichotomy of characters, but, like there's a part of me that wants a younger Bruce and Bats again. Not the old man. I guess they handled it ok, they hinted at a past, and just kinda told us what was going on, but, we never saw it.

And they absolutely should have done more to earn Superman's death and what he means to the world. They didn't jump into the future enough to give that the weight I think it deserved and I feel like that had to have been something at the story meetings people discussed. Like, why go for movie 4 on movie 2? I dunno. Weird choices.

 

I didn't like the idea of incorporating Doomsday into this film (it was as weird for Lex to make him as I predicted after that trailer he was in; I still think a type of Metallo would have worked better), but I did like that they committed to killing Supes and leaving him in the ground. Though, the memorializing of a character we know is coming back did drag on for me a bit at the end. And I agree, not earned yet and too soon and whatnot.

Anyways, I would love if DC let Supes stay dead until at least the third act of JL pt 1, if not the very end, letting the initial team be just Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Cyborg, and Aquaman (since it already won't have Green Lantern). Starting without Supes feels weird, but I think they need to earn his return to justify the death; otherwise, it was a waste of an angle.

What if they make his costume brighter and more Superman-y when he returns? Without the red undies, of course. That'd make me pretty happy.

 

@Tim The way they approached the Metallo origin in the New 52 (not sure if it was Morrison) would have been a perfect film introduction to the character. Especially in the way you mention. Huge missed opportunity.

 

"Tell me, do you bruise? You will."

 

My thoughts, or as @Tim would want me to call them, Eva's Hot Cakes. Going to be slightly rambly because I have a headache and am sleepy, but I feel like I'm already forgetting a lot of what happened and I wanted to get this out before I forget what I want to say.
I'm so perplexed by this movie. This is exactly what I expected: a lot of great ideas and storylines with poor execution. This dragged big time for me up until the ending and felt very disjointed for the most part.
I really didn't like Henry Cavill's performance in this one. Felt very emotionless and empty for the entire time. I also don't like the suit, but that's semantics. I really liked Ben Affleck but do agree they might've gone too old too soon. I'm also really not sure why we need to keep seeing the Wayne's die. The "Martha" at the end didn't hit for me at all. It felt very forced. I think they could've gotten Bruce to back down in a different way. Also, in terms of Batfleck, I really loved the opening scene of him being in Metropolis. I thought that was incredibly effective and a great way to start off the story.
At this point, I very much am on board with Gal Gadot. I thought she was great in this. I refuse to walk anywhere without the Wonder Woman theme playing in the background from this point forward. I'm already sold on Ezra Miller and Jason Mamoa. Loved getting little glimpses of them and I'm still cautiously optimistic about movies for all three.
One thing that still, 3 hours later, is really irritating me is Lois Lane in the bathtub at the beginning of the movie. That was so absurdly gratuitous that I threw up my hands and almost spilled all my popcorn. There was no reason for that scene other than for Amy Adams to be naked in a bathtub.
As expected, I really did not like Eisenberg as Lex. The character felt so tonally grating. I think possibly in a lighter toned movie it would've worked for me, but this movie was intended to be dark. It felt like the character was swimming upstream.
Overall, I think they tried to tell an interesting story and the pieces just didn't connect. The action sequences were amazing. I pretty much squealed the first time we saw the Lasso. I'm not deterred from DCU at this point, but I'm definitely a bit more cautious than I was.

 

I enjoyed the movie for what it was. I loved the Batman Superman fight scene. Sloppy. Rushed. They should have given Batman his standalone first I think and gave some more background on characters. I'm agreeing with most of the criticism of Eisenberg's Luther but I was able to enjoy it for what it was. I found him really creepy. When he had the line about his father not caring if he redecorated the room I totally thought he was going to kill that senator.

So...did anyone else think there's a bit more to the line that went something like, "Think about all the heroes there were, and how many stayed that way..." I, for one, think this gives weight to the Jason Todd is the Joker theory.

 

I have kinda conflicting feelings on the Martha connection. On the one hand, I like that Bruce thinking about Clark having a mother he wants to save was a cool connection point. On the other hand, it's really weird to me that the titular conflict was solved by these characters coincidentally having moms with the same name.

"I'm gonna make you bleed."
"No, save Martha!"
"Hold up, your mom's name is Martha?"
"...yeah?"
"Dude, no way, mine too!"
"Dude!"
*fist bump of friendship*

 

I actually kinda liked that part. Brief humanity moment. The human connection.

Also I give them credit for not hiding the identity from Lois forever. I like that she figured it out basically immediately.

As I slog through Daredevil again tonight I am very happy they didn't make Lois come across as dumb. Or try the "she doesn't like ____ hero trope."

 

I also really enjoyed sassy Alfred. Also, "It's okay, I'm a friend of your son's"

 

That tub scene was so odd. There was so much boob visible at one point that they had to have cgi erased her nipple or something. It was very weird. it wasn't necessary at all, or really serve any purpose.

 

Also why the fuck did they're a take where Jesse Eisenberg has snot running out of his now and into his mouth at the end. What a moment ruining decision

 

This is fantastic...

 

I really enjoyed it, and will definitely be watching it multiple times, just because I feel like so much happened. It's awesome to watch big movies like this with a good crowd, because everyone was into it. If anything, I'm super pumped for the Wonder Woman solo movie next year.

 

One of my favorite things about MoS was Lois discovering his identity before he technically even had one. Heck, I would have loved a version of the film entirely from her perspective, investigating this "Superman" as a journalist and inevitably becoming close to him by the climax.

 

Our critics argue the case of Batman V Superman