General Politics Discussion [ARCHIVED] • Page 107

Some of us are Jewish and pro-Israel

 

some of us are jewish and anti-zionist

 

One of them will be elected. As for damaging the two party system, the thing to do is organize with labor and activists. If you cannot, you can offer up your talents or something you are good at to help the cause; intellectual labor is labor as well. But, also, vote third party.

 

And? I'm not sure what your response actually means.

 

Wasn't trying to generalize; I realize it came off that way

 

...?

 

That-being Israel's roots are a Jewish state- it's kinda offensive to demonize the country

 

Well, I think Israel is a racist, settler colonial state that is genocidal in its aims. That it is a Jewish state is demonstrative of its exclusionary character. So, I don't care if you find criticism offensive.

 

Israel demonizes itself by engaging in occupation, apartheid, and ethnic cleansing.

 

no, it's not. calling anti-zionism antisemitic is, however, often used as a silencing tactic for those who critique it.

 

I can't say Palestine is 100% absolved of their actions but that anybody can look at the death count, and see that Palestinian deaths top Israeli deaths 6 times over, baffles me in saying that Israel is the sole good guy here.

 

No, your 'critique' was bullshit, period. The whole "using your logic" argument is bullshit at least half the time it's used. Mass incarceration and spending on technology R&D aren't apples and oranges, they're not even both fruits. One can actually be used to advance society (which much technology developed under the title "military spending" has), the other is quite literally the opposite, preventing people from participating in said society at all. Not to mention the impact on the overall economy that those prisons have is like comparing a local burger joint to McDonalds.

 

I don't see it happening in the current climate or anytime soon really. Best option might be to agitate and protest in general. Systemic overhaul probably requires violent revolution and I think if that were to happen currently it's more likely to be right wing and authoritarian than leftist.

 

Some of the best and more voracious anti-Zionists and critics of Israel are Jewish. Local St. Louisan Hedy Epstein for example, who just passed away last month.

Turns out, having a brain and a conscience can overcome ethnic bias.

 

From my perspective, the military industrial complex must be taken as a whole and operates to end potentialities in a way that is quite similar to prison. Perhaps it is because you do not see them or ignore them that you respond to incredulity.

 

Warren just endorsed Hillary less than 24 hours before the post you quoted. It is more than being a bad progressive, I was pointing out how it is particularly disappointing for someone who has championed principals of the left to endorse Hillary so strongly. I think the point needs to be made that the democratic party's toxicity controls even Warren, and it will almost surely reach to Sanders. Meanwhile, Jill Stein is never even mentioned when both Sanders' and Warren's talking points are much more closely aligned with her. Warren's endorsement highlights a fatal flaw of the left putting their votes into democrats.

 

Well, military/defense spending definitely doesn't "operate to end potentialities in a way that is quite similar to prison". And yes, that spending is different than our actual foreign policy. You could shift all of the non-war spending over to NASA and, considering the tech being developed and the uses it would be put to outside of space exploration, it could still be technically be classified as "defense spending", and be completely separate from our foreign policy. I don't even know if you could say our foreign policy "operates to end potentialities in a way that is quite similar to prison", though the argument for it is certainly stronger.

Also, taking things "as a whole" can be convenient sometimes but it's not always the right way to look at...well, a lot of things. Bullshit conservatives can "take things as a whole" when it pertains to SS or Medicare or government spending in general to make it look bad--and often do.

 

Sanders and Stein won't actually get to the Oval Office because of a refusal to play ball.

 

Yeah, i just wish they would play ball. It's not like this entire process has been a demonstration that playing ball isn't wholly necessary or that playing ball is what everyone hates about the rest of the field.

If Sanders/Stein run on a Green Party ticket, they get 15% at the absolute minimum and, given the disparity in young voter turnout between primaries and generals, would have a conceivable shot at getting a plurality of votes depending on the field.

 

And you'd be calling him President Trump.

 

Ehh...IDK about that second part. Looking at a place like Michigan, young voters made up 21% of the demos for that primary. The general is going to bring out more voters in every demo, but even if youth voters get to 25%, which I don't think it does, I don't know if that's enough to overrule older people's vote in a 3 way race, where the majority of said old people will be voting for the GOP candidate.

That ticket could possibly get 2nd, but not a winner in a 3 way race, IMO.

 

Just curious, do you give Paul Ryan's endorsement of Trump this same excuse?

 

But I feel like given Warren actually being a member of the democrat party and refusal to nominate anyone until there was a clear winning... her endorsement of Clinton shouldn't have shocked or surprised anyone. Its merely a continued extension of her brand of "progressive". Stein can't win. Even if her talking points are more aligned with Warren's, I think she realizes this and thinks supporting a candidate she agrees with less is the right move to defeat the candidate she disagrees with the most.

If that isn't good enough for people that's totally fine -- and maybe Warren isn't the "progressive hero" you thought she was, but I think that is less a betrayal of her character and more just people making Warren out to be something she never was

 

I think a Sanders/Stein ticket could change the way the country views the two party election system. Trump has shown what national media and social media attention can do, and for that matter so has Sanders. I think Sanders running with Stein would be huge, and would be the closest thing to his political revolution that he can achieve at this point. I'm not saying they'd win but I think establishing a viable left would do more good imo than a Trump Presidency would hurt (not conceding that Trump would even win).

 

More Clinton voters would vote Stein than Trump. He would certainly win, there shouldn't be any doubt about that. While I would love Sanders and Stein, I find it unlikely they run.