The Christian Music Thread Genre • Page 37

I’ll just summarize my thoughts by quoting a certain band that I love:

“My God, I am not. But You are.” :)

 

Where do Open Theist theologians like Greg Boyd (or musicians like Josh Dies) fit in with this? Are they process theologians or do they fall outside the category? When I looked it up this morning I read this short article (which clearly doesn't like process theology, haha!) but it looked like, from what I know of Open Theism, that they would disagree with some principles here (ie. "Process theologians deny that Jesus Christ is God in flesh and therefore mankind has no need for salvation"?!!) From that brief point I would say I fundamentally disagree with it!

This quote is perfect and sums up all the theology I ever need. I love the mystery and the beauty and the vastness of who God is when summed up in such a simple refrain.

 

Long-winded post ahead. I always have to jump at the chance to talk about this stuff on here. :)

So I think open theism can be a "gateway theology" to process theology from what I'm reading on it. It at least seems that God voluntarily chooses not to know certain events so that mankind can exercise free will. He isn't just riding the wave of the universe. I think that's better, but it's still pretty incompatible with Scripture which gives room for God's absolute sovereignty and some measure of mankind's personal responsibility. I can't comprehend that. That's why I'm so thankful for Job's response to God in Job 42:1-3 after all he'd been through:

"Then Job answered the Lord and said: "I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. [You said,] 'Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.""

There comes a point in the Bible where we can't know. We're reaching into the things of God that are beyond us. Scripture itself attests to this here and in passages like Psalm 131:1, Psalm 139:6, and Romans 11:33 (love all those verses by the way!). These aren't at all justification for postmodern thought in Christianity. We really can know and know more (Phi. 3:8). It just means there are certain things that are out of bounds on this side of eternity. I think that dilemma of absolute sovereignty and personal responsibility is one of those things that's just never made clear. And I think where we go wrong is we encounter personal moral dilemmas about God and allow our theology to be shaped by those things as well as our understanding of Scripture and its sufficiency.

What I love about Job is that it flattens all that. God ordains all this unbelievable hardship in Job's life (He flat-out gives the devil permission to take everything from Job!), but He does all this to bring Job closer to Himself and give him a greater joy than he can even imagine. And at the end of the book, that's exactly what happens. Job suffers more than almost anyone we see in Scripture outside Christ Himself, then he dies "an old man and full of days" (42:17) implying that he had an incredible measure of peace at the end of his life. Then He gets to see the Lord.

Not to argue from my experience, because that would kind of contradict what I'm saying, but on a personal note, having faced one of my best friends committing suicide and my mom coming very close to dying this last year, I've found incredible comfort in reading what the Bible says and singing, "My God, I am not. But You are." I feel like I've undergone my own personal "deconstruction" in a lot of ways, questioning whether all this pain is worth it. Then I look at books like Job (in addition to the Gospel itself) and I think, "Man, yes. It is totally worth it." I'll always struggle with doubt and uncertainty. I don't pretend to be a scholar. But I also know that faith is being certain of what I don't see (Heb. 11) and that hope that is seen is not hope (Rom. 8:24) so I must be in a good spot. :)

I know that might seem like a rabbit trail, but I do think it connects with the mindset behind process theology. I know from past discussions that we probably have different ideas on some of this stuff, and that you've been struggling with a lot of questions, so would be curious to know your thoughts.

 

With this kind of thing I've actually always been in a position where I just don't think I can ever make sense or understand it and I'm kind of content with that. Which is why "My God, I am not. But You are." is just a beautiful prayer. It's the same with that As Cities Burn song that says "I think our god isn't God if he fits inside our heads". When it comes to what God can or can't do I think it's a bit too far above my pay grade! I've come to realise that I used to live like it wasn't though. Embarrassing!

It's funny because I do have a lot of questions or have moved away from a lot of theological perspectives that I once held. But I'm learning to see God in all of it and to celebrate and give thanks for the ways others worship and engage with God, as well as their understandings of God. I've never bought into Calvinism and I think I've said before that it's not as dominant in the UK but neither do I think any of the other things I've read into (Arminianism or Open Theism being the main two thought streams I know about) give a complete picture that makes perfect sense. You just can't fit God into a box in my experience (and I have tried, haha!) I'm happy to sit with Paul in acknowledging the mystery of all these things. I agree with the verses you referenced and I do agree that we can know and know more but we always have to hold in tension that we are talking about the Infinite and therefore, as you say, there's just some things that we can't get our heads around (or need to!)

I do think I probably read Job as more of a metaphorical, poetical piece of literature - but that obviously gives a glimpse of God's character and I agree that, whether God literally ordained hardship on a literal person called Job, it is showing us there is a lot that we cannot understand about God and why God may act in one way or another. (I'm glad that that book has provided you with a source of comfort in your questions.) Funnily enough my brothers and dad have been texting this morning about the foolishness of God - God's foolishness is more wise than any of us can imagine! "For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength" - 1 Corinthians 1:25

I can't get away from the reality of the mystery of Christ - that the Christ who is God and has existed for all eternity somehow took on flesh and lived on this earth. So I don't think I'd ever align myself with something like process theology from my quick research. I'd be interested to hear what Thrice/Dustin Kensure have to do with that? @Gooddayz was there a link to his thoughts on it?

I love what you have said about your own journey (and I'm sorry it's been a hard year dealing with those two specific things - it's funny you can have compassion for someone who you haven't met but I genuinely do care and often think of you when I see you posting on the site). I think I've come to a similar place - embracing the uncertainty and the questions and knowing that God is good and God is love and that's all I need to know on a basic level. We will know and un-know, learn and un-learn as we travel through life, but God's character is the same. I like the Hebrews passage because it's not certainty in a doctrine or theology (which can be seen) but certainty in Love itself, the Christ who died and was raised for us so that we could have new life, something that we cannot see. I love that.

I recently wrote a reflection of 10 years living in the city I moved to when I left home but it is mainly about some of my spiritual faith journey. You (or others) may be interested. I don't think it's too long of a read and is another rabbit trail off the original topic, but it kind of fits in as a point of interest... perhaps!

 

I will definitely read that blog post first chance I get. Love this post though. Your humility on these things humbles me. Thanks for reading and caring. The feelings are mutual. I used to hold online friends at an arms length until I I realized God can really use these relationships even if we can see them as “inferior” initially. I’ve really appreciated you and your prayers and your interest in my music too. Seriously, brother, it’s a huge blessing. Feel free to let me know if you need prayer or encouragement.

 

I wish it was as easy to be humble in real life than writing anonymously on the internet! Ha! Just for an example so that everyone knows I'm just a normal person trying to follow Christ and the way of love he demonstrated... my brother and his wife live in London and go to a pretty conservative theologically. My wife and I popped down to see them a few months back and we went to their church on the Sunday. Great service in so many ways but they were baptising a baby at the beginning (I'm ok with infant baptism having grown up in the Anglican church - it's pretty normal here - I respect that as a choice and can see some instances in the New Testament where it can be backed. That wasn't my issue!) What happened was that the parents had to say these promises. In the Anglican church they're similar to ones that you say when you're an adult (Do you submit to Christ and follow him? Do you reject evil? Standard baptism questions). Here they were asked "Do you affirm that [Baby Name] was sinful from the moment of conception and was born in to this wretched world?" and I grabbed my wife's hand tightly and whispered to her "I don't believe that...!" It was an eye-popping moment for me. I obviously understand the doctrine of original sin and, again, I respect that but I just couldn't understand the sperm and the egg being sinful from the moment they connected! What happened to being made in the image of God?! Nor do I think the world is completely wretched and I thought that was a sad, sad way of viewing everything around us. (I don't mind original sin if that's what people go for, but I like to start with Genesis 1 and original blessing this side of the cross, even if we're not experiencing the fullness of that yet.) Anyway, my key point is that internally I found it very hard to be grace-filled and humble and very difficult to find the beauty in what was being said like I put in the other post! So that's just a quick example to bring any perception of me back to earth!

I think I was the same with online things but then I realised that we're all just humans and whilst face to face contact is so valuable, there's still something lovely about connecting. Particularly through music as most of my friends aren't familiar with many bands I enjoy.

Thank you for your kindness! And many of the other regulars in this thread! I'll take you up on that prayer/encouragement thing at some point!

 

Oh absolutely! I agree with you 100%. My first reaction to what you mentioned about process theology was, "what about God's sovereignty?", so I really like what you mentioned about Job. I'm by no means a full blown Calvinist, but whenever you start to neglect His sovereignty you start to lose me. Have you seen the wisdom series about "Proverbs, Ecclesiastics and Job" off The Bible Project? It's some good stuff, esp the one about Job. It's so interesting there's a whole book in he Bible on how we should deal with our doubts and emotional baggage when we go through trails and such.

Gonna have to listen to this song now! One phrase I remember from the college ministry I was involved with was something very similar, "God is God and you are not".

 

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No unfortunately there wasn't. Someone posted his reading list that influenced him a lot on his deconstruction and reconstruction of his beliefs. He had a couple process theology books on there, so I was curious. I really would like to hear him flesh out where he's at with his worldview and faith now.

I read your reflection and it was a nice read! I very much relate to this, "I am different and I am the same". I feel that sums up nicely the growth that's happened in my life over the years.

 

Thanks!

I think I skipped those titles in my head - just went back to the reading list and I think I was immediately drawn to books I had read (Mike McHargue, Richard Rohr) and authors I respect (Rachel Held Evans, Peter Enns) that I totally missed those two process theology titles right in the middle, haha! Very interesting.

 

I love The Bible Project! But I don’t think I’ve seen those. Need to check it out. There’s a book by Michael Card called “A Sacred Sorrow” which is all about lament in the Bible and tells the stories of Job, David, Jeremiah, and Jesus. The whole thing is amazing, but I love the section on Job.

I know you didn’t ask for my opinion and were making a different point, but I’d like to say I probably fall somewhere between you and the Anglican pastor. I do believe in being born into depravity (ironically I just wrote lyrics last night about this) but emphasizing that point without seeing the beauty and common graces that God has given us is super disheartening. There’s a man who I love and respect who jokingly uses the term “vipers in diapers”. If that even is true, it just seems a cynical way of describing it. But he’s also super great with kids so I can’t count it against his character. Ha.

As far as the world goes, something that Andrew Peterson says is that there is not a secular molecule in the universe. I love that. Yes it’s groaning. Yes it’s decaying. Yes it hurts. But there is so much beauty here at the same time. This is something people in my reformed circles don’t seem to grasp. It can make being an artist difficult here. Either way, it’s amazing to me to be experiencing a broken world simultaneously with God’s blessings. The angels must be jealous!

 

Yeah, I was just shocked that this pastor's theology (it was actually an independent denomination rather than Anglican) was from the point of conception. I don't mind supporters of original sin arguing that a baby is sinful from the moment they've been born - I can see how that would work but I had never heard of being sinful from the point of conception! That just shocked me to the point where I had this internal "wow" moment.

As for me, I'm not 100% sure what I think but I'm looking forward to the lyrics! I think we all have a tendency to be self-centred and selfish and from that point we need a saviour (simplistic way of saying it but yeah). When that kicks in, I don't know enough about child psychology or biology, ha! But I don't think the body is naturally 'bad' like some Christians believe so I found the pre-birth baptism commitment of sinfulness quite hard to stomach or, indeed, understand. Also, and this is something I'm wrestling with and your insight would be possibly useful... I've been reading a lot of the Pauline epistles and pondering on what it actually means when we say "all are included" in the death and resurrection of Jesus. For example, when someone 'realises' their need for Jesus (confession, repentance) and 'becomes a Christian' (very western Christian way of putting it but you know what I mean) or decides to follow the way of Jesus, Jesus doesn't get back up on the cross and die again for them - he's already done included them in his death and resurrection. Thinking out loud...! Oh the mystery of the cross!!

I love what Andrew Peterson says there and I'm genuinely sad that people wouldn't be able to see that.

 

I've been sitting on this reply for a few days mulling over the discussion so far. I've really enjoyed reading the dialogue and seeing how something as potentially touchy as faith has been discussed so openly. Thank you for sharing your own story and I agree with @awakeohsleeper about caring for people you haven't even met, it's great having this community, (I feel like I know both of you somewhat just from crossing paths in other forums)

I lost my dad to a suicide when I was in college and had everything in my life turned upside down. I'm so sorry you had to experience a loss due to suicide, there's nothing that prepares you for that kind of gut wrenching grief. I had to figure out everything I thought I knew, starting with my faith. I love the honestly of Job and it was that book that had some of the biggest impact on my own healing. There was something so freeing about seeing Job's complete honesty with God and how he doesn't hold back. God hears it out and then puts Job in his place by saying this is all beyond his understanding. I could be honest with God and realized he was in control, even when I couldn't see it. I didn't have to understand why things happened but I could still express my questions.

I was going to say the exact same thing from As Cities Burn, that song meant more to me than almost any other song, "I think our god isn't God if he fits inside our heads." I also love Wrong Body, "If I make it to heaven I may be as bloody as hell." This life will beat us up but like Job's story there can still be joy.

He is beyond our understanding but at the same time he can take our questions and still goes through the pain with us. I also thought about the song Wilderness by The Supertones (sorry I'm posting most of the song!)

Have you ever held in doubt
What this life is all about
Have you questioned all these things that seem important to us
Do you really wanna know
Or are you a little scared
You're afraid that God is not really exactly what you'd have Him be
What should I hold to and what should I do
How do I know if anything's true
I'm somewhere in-between Canaan and Egypt
A place called the wilderness

I have spoken too soon put my hand over my mouth
I can't contend with You
Your ways are so much higher
And we pass through the fire that Christ endured before us
When You were in the wilderness

I've come to the realization that as much as I think I understand about the nature of God, there will always be questions. I used to be afraid of my own doubts but now I've realize that's where faith comes in and the most growth can happen. I love Tennyson's quote, "there lives more faith in honest doubt, believe me, than in half the creeds.”

 

Yeah indeed. He also has a book from a Sunni poet and I think someone mentioned Beyond The Pines came from that book and also Aaron from mewithoutYou has referenced it too. Interesting stuff!

 

Yes, Rumi. I’ve read that book due to Aaron always quoting him.

 

How's the book? I'm sure there's wisdom to be found there, but with discernment of course.

 

Anybody ever heard of Sandra McCracken?

 

If you like mewithoutYou it’s fun finding random lyrics that came from Rumi. As it’s poetry I read it for beauty rather than wisdom - although I would say there’s an overlap with Sufi thought and some of the mystic desert fathers and mothers.

 

Her album is one of the best of this year.

 

I gave it a spin today and I liked it! I feel like I lack in female Christian artist.

 

That's really interesting! I'm super excited to give the new mewithoutYou tomorrow!!

 

All her stuff is great. She’s part of that group of lowkey Christian singer/songwriters in Nashville that just kill it. Andrew Peterson, Andy Gullahorn, Andrew Osenga, Ben Shive, Jill Phillips, Eric Peters, and Sandra McCracken are all just tremendous.

 

Going back to the T&N topic, just saw they signed Mike Mains & the Branches. Haven't been this excited for a T&N signing in a long time, Calm Down Everything is Fine was such a solid album.

 

So, ummm, the new Emery.

Thoughts?

 

In the running for my album of the year. Some of their best songs ever. I love the alt/rock direction they took. A lot less screaming, but they still sound like Emery with the dueling vocals and harmonies. Devin (especially) and Toby sound great. Some interesting content lyrically. I love it front to back. The cover doesn't bother me, if that's what you're getting at.

 

Haha. No. Just trying to justify my decision to blindly throw $46 at the vinyl having not had time to spin it yet.