Accountability in Music • Page 59

Do you think not telling people why he was fired to protect his future career is sticking by him? Or at least is sticking up for him to protect a friendship? Cause in this current era of disclosure of shitty men and how they are protected all over the world it sure seems like it.

 

I’m very surprised they haven’t even tweeted about SN dropping off the show.

 

A lot has changed since the JJR thing. I would suspect TWY asked SN to drop off this tour, if only to prevent fallout or this tarnishing their otherwise positive album release. Maybe that's cynical to think, but if they didn't learn their lesson with JJR then... idk.

 

the JJR situation was and is a very awful thing and its something that hangs in my head every time i press "play" on a TWY song.

the band shouldve been more aggressive in their disowning of him and made a point to ruin him so that no other bands pick him up. from what i remember it was a legal issue as to why they waited but either way its a real shame and this situation only further breaks my heart, not just because i love this band, but it just further drives home how truly awful this scene is and has been for so long and days like today it feels like its just really piling on with no end in sight. its a very disheartening moment and i hope this thread doesnt venture into "woke contests" like previous threads from the past couple weeks, which i admit i and many others took part in and thats not doing anyone any favors.

love yall. gonna go unwind and think about things

 

Stay healthy, friend.

 

Yeah idk for you guys but I'm gonna go find god because I've CLEARLY wronged them. I'm tired of this. I don't even know why we have this thread, everyone in this scene is beyond shit. Just bin it all. don't know why we bother.

 

Always worth trying to make things better and break the cycle. Hope you’re ok, that bridge comment was rough to read.

 

At some point I really need to find the time to write more about accountability vs punishment and dealing with these issues on personal and community levels. They're all different things, and they take different lenses to view them. There were some harsh comments thrown my way a few days ago when I brought up why I think many of these things are difficult and not easy to reconcile and how our interaction and engagement with the art is a fluid process and we're making a lot of different, and difficult, decisions when we choose to consume anything. Some of that ends up being out in the open, some of that is personal, and some of it's unconscious. Men and the toxicity in this scene are an issue that is not going to go away and there will never be a 'last of it' probably in my lifetime. We have to think about what accountability means to us and be open to other interpretations from other people as well, in my opinion. They're hard questions. And many of us are thinking about and trying to work through them in the open.

And I've been thinking about how much it pisses me off one of my favorite movies from the past few years (Baby Driver) is extremely hard to watch because of Kevin Spacey. And for the first time in a long time the other night I was sitting around thinking about how I had a tinge of "miss" for Brand New's music. There's something there I had for so long and it being gone at times hurts like a phantom limb. I think that's ok to say, and to talk about with people, without feeling judgement, or worse, from people that think (and maybe they do) have it more figured out where they stand on every issue.

Anyway, I've got some work to do and some baseball to watch. So, be kind to each other.

 

I kinda wanna tell two quick stories re: TWY and issues w/ women, bc I think it really describes the sort of tension that follows the band with this that I've experienced firsthand. Others prob have seen this or know what I'm talking about.

Back at Warped Tour in I think 2013 I saw them w/ some friends, my now fiancee, and her sister who was probably 16/17. I left them behind, like a horribly selfish boyfriend, to get closer to the stage with my (male) friends. Meanwhile my fiancee and her sister were trying to have a good time, danced and sang along excitedly, jumping around, enjoying themselves. Then some asshole started giving them a hard time, pushed my girlfriend, called her a bitch and a ***got. His friends were just like "Oh he's drunk."

But during the set, Soupy made a speech about misogyny, and how everyone should respect women. My fiancee felt vindicated by that, somewhat, since the guy and his friends backed off. I never got to do anything about it though. He was gone by the time the set ended.

I saw TWY again at the Stone Pony not long thereafter too. Some drunk, shirtless, overweight guy knocked a young teenage girl out cold. Security had to throw him out, and get the girl medical attention. I watched this all unfold from the back platform. I again didn't do anything, just watched helplessly. I recall the show stopping for this incident, but then quickly resuming for the end of the set.

But these experiences have shaped my perception regarding women's issues at TWY shows. The band tries to say and do the right thing, but the scene, environment, etc. is just so hyper masculine and toxic. Looking back, I was just as guilty and complicit in that. It's something I'm embarrassed about to this day.

TL;DR - I'm just not convinced TWY shows are welcoming environments for women. This stuff w/ SN doesn't help counter that image. They're still one of my favorite bands, and I think they have their heads/hearts in the right place. But the issue is just so much bigger than even what they can do.

 

What are people mad at TWY for? That somehow they knew all this about Cam? I'm confused.

 

someone said that TWY's management was warned about cam's allegations before the tour

 

I was in the process of making a edit, I just read that. Yeah idk I feel like I'm going to reserve judgement until there's like some kind of proof on that, could totally take a screenshot of that email and post it, censoring w/e you need to

 

So far the only thing confirmed is Jason saying that the email addresses they had were correct.

 

I don't think we can move forward based on the assumption that TWY's management allegedly being warned that Cam is abusive means that the band definitely knew. Regardless, SN dropping from the tour was the right thing to do and I am just as sickened by the allegations as anyone else in this thread.

Also, just a hypothetical: I was watching MoBo's documentary about Holy Ghost today and it mentions Cam saving Brendan from taking his own life. Would Brendan become problematic if he stayed friends with Cam?

 

People can be friends with whoever they want. Even abusers need (and have) friends. I don’t think it’s productive to call a person problematic or unproblematic based upon who their personal friends are. It just comes down to whether or not that friendship means “I’m going to give this abuser a piece of my platform because they’re my friend.”

 

So is TWY inherently at fault for giving Cam or JJR, for that matter, a platform?

 

YUP! exactly

there is a difference between someone helping cam in the background and transit putting harry corrigan on stage

 

This is actually something I’ve struggled with. One of my closest friends physically assaulted his GF about two years back (they’ve since ended their relationship in a prett messy fashion with custody and all that.) I told him flat out how I felt about it and what I thought of him, but it never seemed to resonate with him. I see him every now and again, but he’s not someone I’m comfortable having in my house around my wife and kids. I’ve certainly struggled with allowing him into my life at all anymore and I think he picks up on that because he’s always telling me about how good he’s doing, and so on and so on. We text here and there, but again, I feel strange continuing to be his friend even if it is super limited now.

 

with TWY I think it's a strange situation, I don't know how non DIY bands function but I'd assume that management knowing doesn't mean the band does - holding them accountable for something they may not be aware of is a dangerous precedent. That being said, they may well know and that is worth worrying about

 

If management knew they were bringing an abuser on tour and didn't tell the band, that management needs to be fucking fired.

 

I've never been a fan of TWY, but their actions in that past have shown that even if they talk big about dealing with things like this, they have at the very least been complicit in continuing the toxicity of this fucked up music scene. This shouldn't be primarily about them, but I wouldn't give them the benefit of the doubt in this situation. Their reluctance to take a stand in the past is directly allowing someone who covered up abuse to continue in this scene. That matters. The lack of action taken can have severe consequences.

 

Re: having friends who are abusers... this one is very, very difficult. And here's my take, which nobody asked for but I'm gonna give anyway.

On the one hand, it probably isn't reasonable to expect that abusers will have no friends until the end of time. On the other hand - maintaining a friendship with them, particularly a public friendship, will say a LOT to survivors (particularly the ones who survived that person specifically), and very little of what it says will be good.

For example, from my personal perspective - I never expected that my abuser would be abandoned when I left him and started telling my story. Now, the mutual friends that we had? They're just his friends now, because I couldn't (and honestly, shouldn't have had to) deal. To me, anyone who knows what he did and keeps him in their life is effectively saying one of two things:

1. It didn't happen
or
2. It doesn't matter that it happened

And neither of those things are acceptable. For many survivors, particularly those with PTSD related to their abuse, this is the message that gets sent when friendships are maintained despite knowledge of what happened, regardless of intent. So, in a sense, maintaining friendships with known abusers means accepting that, and realizing that you automatically become someone certain groups of people probably can't trust. And it's important to understand that it can be a VERY slippery slope between that and becoming an outright apologist - which was the case with the vast majority of my now former friends, including someone who was at one point my best friend... which is why I personally find it so hard to stomach when people stay friends with abusers in the light of day. But again, I have PTSD and although I'm working on it and I get better every day, certain things (like that) will always leave the worst kind of taste in my mouth, especially since typically the story isn't "He saved my life". It's usually more along the lines of "He never personally did that to me and it's easier to just stay friends so *shrug*", and for survivors it can be exhausting beyond the point of reason to try to tell the difference. It's hard enough coming forward about these experiences. To have someone then say that their personal connection is more important than your pain - EVEN THOUGH IT ISN'T A COMPLETELY RATIONAL RESPONSE - really, really sucks and depending on your relationship with that person can be just as damaging as the abuse itself.

So, in conclusion... people can be friends with whoever they want. But that means accepting the implications and owning that.

 

If everyone agrees with this no supporting abusers who are your friend thing, does that mean we're FINALLY going to call kevin devine out for his handling of the jesse lacey situation

 

when are you going to post your article that says why we shouldn't? i'm still very curious to see what i'm missing here

 

Really got discouraged by the conversations I had on here about this stuff actually. I tried to restructure it to adapt it and cover every angle but it just got me depressed like I can’t do my case justice. So it’s on hold for now.