Camp Cope - How to Socialise & Make Friends (March 2, 2018) Album • Page 15

There is no such thing as reverse sexism. There is only sexism. Treat others how you would like to be treated.

For instance, don’t call me names unless you enjoy having the same done to you. If I were to respond to you calling me a fool by calling you a name, I’d be acting like a hypocrite. That’s why I chose not to.

Don’t tell men they can’t do something and then be all pissed off if any man says a woman can’t do something. This is a common sense issue.

 

Imagine making fun of someone because of the music they listen to.

That seems like a very admirable and mature quality. That song “Fly” has a fantastic message. To each, his or her own.

 

i agree, that post was unnecessary and it distracts from the bigger issues here

 

Is this ACA?

 

I mean he has some very racist lyrics

 

I wouldn’t be surprised. I’ve heard 2 total songs of his at the recommendation of a friend who is big into rap/hip hop and sometimes asks me to check something out. Which then in turn I ask him to listen to something I like. Give and take. It’s called friendship.

I didn’t recommend his entire discography. I specifically pointed out 1 song.

 

To not understand the difference here is blowing my mind.

 

Listen to Happy Ending and if you still want to listen to any of his music then I don't know what to say

 

Hopsin is technically a very good rapper, but his lyrics are annoyingly preachy, misogynistic and in that song with the Asian themed music video, horrifically racist. There's so much better hip-hop out there.

 

Just adding my name to the list of "cis white males" who completely get this record and stand behind everything Georgia is saying. These conversations are why this record matters.

 

I’ll give it a listen once I finish checking out this album by some other band I’m checking out right now, female fronted coincidentally lol

There is no difference and to say there is, is a common logical fallacy. Yes, the typical way we see sexism portrayed because it is the by far and away more common form of sexism is man being sexist towards women.

Women have to put up with so much disgusting behavior that I fear for my daughter getting older.

Women have had to fight harder for everything they earn to try and obtain true equality.

Just because man to woman is the typical way we see sexism played out doesn’t mean woman to man is not an equal offense.

We cannot live in a world where the commonly oppressed are justified to oppress those who are commonly viewed as oppressors and be considered just based on their higher standing on the totem pole of victim hood. We should all be judged based on our actions as individuals.

So yea, I think it was a poor choice for her to tell men they can’t review this album. It really is as simple as two wrongs don’t make a right.

 

Yeah you're really upping the defensiveness, which is never an ideal response, it shuts down communication, so you just dig in further and further to defend yourself while refusing to listen. If you perceive something as a personal attack, being defensive makes it worse, you should be focusing on listening and trying to understand where people are coming from. Its hard because the psychological default is to get defensive, but if you can fight through that and actually hear people, its better for everyone involved.

This has nothing to do with "target audience", which is more of a marketing term. Being "made for you" doesn't refer to you not falling in some demographic group, but being made for different things people look for in music. I'll give a complicated example: I showed a few Camp Cope songs to my friend in my jazz band, one of the most talented musicians I know, but also a strong feminist. From a technical standpoint she doesn't like this record at all, its very simple, and its simple by design, but she found merit in the message and the emotional way in which they performed and executed that message. That said, she found it wasn't really for her.

Basically, you can't judge all records on the same criteria. This record wasn't made to be picked apart on a technical level, that's not their intent, judging them on that scale misses the point of what they're trying to do. Just like a more experimental jazz record shouldn't be picked apart based on conveying strong emotional moments and sincerity, honesty, etc. That would be judging on a wrong scale, it doesn't make sense, and unless you only listen to a very specific kind of music, other genres will fail by being compared on one scale. That's also why people who don't like rap or hip hop can pick up on certain artists, even tho they are definitely trash when compared to the wider range of that genre in general (and also can be horrible people, but that's another conversation).

You said it yourself, you judge all records by the same list of things. This record isn't trying to do the things you, and generally a lot of white male reviewers are looking for. These people are often gatekeepers in the industry and have been trying to change Camp Cope and how they perform for their entire career, to fit into a set of ideals that they think every band should meet. But Camp Cope is not made for people like that, and have grown a very dedicated fan base fighting against what a larger world is telling them to be. This record wasn't made for them, for you, for me, and definitely not for a lot of other people.

That doesn't mean it is immune to criticism, but critiques based on it not doing things they never set out to do is unfounded, and essentially misses the point of the record. I love this record, I have some issues with it, I've been comparing it to their debut and I'm not sure which I prefer but I definitely have found some flaws by looking at them side by side, record to record. But, I'm not comparing this record to other bands and picking out what they do or don't do as well and what I would want them to sound like from a technical level. That's like, nonsensical, and is intermixed with a lot of the issues they've been talking about as a band for a long time.

If you want to have a conversation about all this we can have a conversation, but if you're just going to be defensive we're not going to get anywhere

 

All that said, its cool to not like a record. You can just be like "I gave it a shot but wasn't feeling it, guess its not for me."

The way they're creating these harder conversations tho, that's why they're becoming one of the most important bands in whatever style of music this is called anymore

 

Again, I didn’t perceive anything as a personal attack. Perception vs reality. Someone specifically called me a fool.

As to the rest of what you say it was all over the place. My initial response to this record was one of questioning. I was looking for insight as to what drove the hype because to me it sounded average. Average vocals, average lyrics, average at best instrumentally and super simplistic. It was surprising to me to see so many AOTY type reviews. I expected more upon first listen when I saw the hype.

I was met with that by being called a fool and told I wasn’t allowed to critique or review this album. I disagree with that notion while agreeing with the message this band has put forth in their album.

I now understand the hype. The hype is message based hype. They love the message and thus relate to the band and people are connecting to them. Understood now.

It really should have been as simple as that and then that would have been it but people just kept insisting that I’m somehow part of the problem and “this is why they made this music!” As if I’m oppressing them as the big bad cis white male putting down women and claiming women can’t make good music.

I’ve been listening to a female fronted bands music all morning and am loving it. It’s a band most people on here might think sucks and I’m cool with that.

Now other people are saying I shouldn’t critique the album bc of the msg and that goes against the spirit of the album. I just don’t think it works that way because I am not disagreeing with the message of the album. I fully support times up, I support believing women, I support accountability in music. I used to listen to Brand New almost daily and have since thrown out their cds and deleted all of it from iTunes. I support times up. I support the LBGTQ community.

That said I also support the right for all men and women, gay, straight or whatever, white or black or whatever of any race, religion, sexual orientation or culture to have the right to have a voice on ALL THINGS and ALL ISSUES.

Men have a place in the discussions about the fair and equitable treatment of women. In fact men HAVE TO be there and they have to listen up and take a stand. It can’t just be women fighting for women’s rights. It can’t just be the LBGTQ community fighting for LBGTQ rights. It can’t just be minorities fighting for the rights of minorities. It can’t. So don’t tell me to shut up and dribble because I’m not who this music is meant for.

Last I checked this was a music forum open to all. Not just a private for women only area to speak of this female band.

I didn’t trash the band, I didn’t say “they suck women can’t play.” I asked about the hype. Gave my opinion and said to each their own.

 

This record is too good for the convos happening in here.

 

do you think white supremacists should be allowed to hate speech?

 

No. I tend to over analyze things. I’m just an analytical person. So while my heart and emotions say, “Fuck no, I support fully punching them in their stupid faces.” My brain starts to think through the implications, “we’ll first that would be assault, 2nd the first ammendment and the right to gather peacefully but this is hate speech so that shouldn’t be covered under the 1st amendment”

And then my heart and emotions goes right back to “fuck them I hope they all die” but the simple answer is no.

After all the analytics I tend to go back to the most simple and common sense thinking I can and say, “wrong is wrong, hate speech is wrong. No they shouldn’t be allowed”

End of story. And I’ve taken that same approach here unless you are thinking I’ve somehow participated in hate speech towards women in this thread?

 

The implication that lyrics are average when someone is writing about something so close, personal, and (almost definitely) traumatic is kind of fucked.

 

You're continually missing the point. The hype isn't message based, my friend liked their message and doesn't like this record. People don't like this record just for the message, like everything else is average and that's bad but the message is enough to make it AOTY alone, that doesn't make sense. You're ignoring like my entire post about generally white males judge music in a certain way that is set and unchanging, that often ignores female musicians that don't fit into their specific mold. I'm not saying Camp Cope can't get by as a band by skipping those judgements because of some strong message, I'm saying that those standard scales for judgement shouldn't apply to every band, because not every band is trying to do the same thing. And then you went on a weird rant about feeling attacked again and how all people can talk about everything. Yeah, sure, you're not being attacked for talking about this record, but how you're talking about it.

I don't come into some thread about a jazz album, say hey they're playing too fast, what's with all the solos, there's barely any vocals, I just don't get the hype here. Uhhh, what do you mean this record isn't made for me, someone who only looks at certain specific things and never changes my mind about what a record should be? Everything needs to fit my criteria! I am angry and we should ALL be able to say whatever we want about this music no matter how much I don't understand what this band was trying to do.


It really encapsulates all the shit they have to deal with playing music in this scene.

 

Some of the lyrics at times were above average in my opinion. Some just didn’t hit me. Just because you are writing about strong emotions and close personal experiences doesn’t make it automatically brilliant. If it did we’d all be brilliant lyricists because we all eventually go through some shit in life. Not everyone has that special knack of putting pen to paper and making magic of the horrific.

You can totally disagree and think her words are brilliant. I feel for her and support the message but I didn’t read the lyrics and think I read the work of genius. No big deal.

 

Guh, I am so bothered right now

 

Your original post was basically asking people to come in and defend this record because you thought it was “average”. So you are the one who started with an attack.

The people who like this record don’t need to defend it. It speaks to them, that should be enough.

 

First I disagree that all CIS White Males judge music the same. Lots of scene kids male, female gay or straight do like to compare every female that’s part of a band to Paramore. There are indeed stereotypical examples.

Second, I am not anywhere trying to mitigate their truth. What I mean by that is I am not denying I’m any way that they have to put up with a lot of extra garbage from fans, labels, venues, etc bc of their gender. Sadly it’s something I fully believe they and other female bands, especially in rock, alternative and all it’s so genres get fully slammed with.

Third, i’m not getting your weird Jazz reference. I didn’t pop into the thread and be like, where’s the sick bars and why are there no tubas in this album? I came in here, listened and heard a very simplistically pieced together album with a strong message. I commented and politely asked the people in the thread what drove the hype.

Four, your jazz friend you say didn’t like it. Her response was basically exactly what mine was but for some reason your okay with her response but mine is an issue? I’m trying to get a hold of what your saying but I can’t. So now it’s cool that I voiced that I wasn’t into certain aspects of the music but it’s also not cool that I voiced that I’m not into certain aspects of the music. Okay?

 

Is Sagan Indiana the name of one of her friends? I noticed Georgia follows someone on Twitter with that name.

 

I didn’t ask for them to defend it. I asked what I was missing. I did go back and re-read my original 2 posts on this and still don’t see how people took offense. This is a music forum. Are specific band/album threads on this forum only meant to be places for people who love the album to discuss only what they love about the band/album and then I came in here sounding like a troll because I didn’t sing praises? If so I apologize. I thought this was a place to share positive or negative feelings and reviews.

I also apologize if some people took my asking about the hype because to me the album sounded no more special than the work from the hundreds of other bands I’ll listen to this year before 2018 is over, as a personal attack against specific people or women in general. That was not anywhere near my intention.