Brand New - Science Fiction (August 17, 2017) [ARCHIVED] Album • Page 1681

Yes we should. Never cared about Devine. Don't even know how or what Worriers or Lauren D are. Ignorance feels like bliss to me to be honest because if I had people that I liked siding with this I'd probably be royally more pissed than I am. Feels good to be old.

 

worriers is someone i trust when it comes to social issues, she's really wonderful and outspoken.

i see some truth in this. is simply kicking any abuser out of the scene going to actually help the victims? is that what they want really? there's definitely more nuance needed that isn't happening and i'm not sure anyone that isn't the specific victim in each specific case truly knows how to handle it. but i do agree to a degree that simply expulsion from the scene isn't actual accountability

 

you guys should read the replies too, lots of very respected musicians/music industry people in there. voices to listen to

 

I think it's something that he's probably thinking about. I'm sure he knows more details than we do at this point.


aside from legal punishment and losing his social status what else are people really thinking could happen here? I'm being sincere, I really want to know what the course of action could be to allow these people to still be people that have to live in our society?

on top of punishment doesnt really help the victims at all

 

Making Sense Of Restorative Justice, Community Response, And The PWR BTTM Fallout

this article was posted in the comments by sammus (who is a really great personality, rapper who is involved more in the diy indie scene, really good performer too) and is worth reading regarding the topic of accountability

 

restorative justice is a really interesting topic, since the prison system is so fucked and doesn't actually rehabilitate people or mean real justice for victims.

 

i think you're looking into things too specifically and not just as a general statement on accountability in general, as opposed to jesse's specific case. kevin is very active on twitter and constantly involved in conversations with many different musicians, it's a general picture thing

 

yeah I agree mostly. the only thing that we don't know is how much KD knows. he's been jesse's friend for a long time and I'm sure he knows (now at least) how long hes been in treatment or getting help. while it doesn't help his victims him getting help does mean something I think.

this is a good point too, although I'd be surprised if this wasn't related to jesse

 

i'm sure it partially has to do with things but kevin definitely knows enough about these situations to not look at in the lens of "letting jesse get off", more in the aspect of letting the victims get the accountability they want and deserve as opposed to what WE think is correct

 

I mean, Kevin Devine is very good friends with Jesse. I'm sure he (like all of us) are absolutely disgusted with Jesse's past and what he's done, but I highly doubt he's not going to be friends with him anymore. I've heard a lot of people say 'well, what if the victim was your sister, cousin, friend? etc'...have people thought about 'what if the abuser was your brother, cousin, friend?'

Would you just cut all ties with someone who was so important to you throughout your life? I don't know, some might, or others may try to be there for their brother, cousin, friend in their lowest of lows AND still stand for the victims. I think it's possible to do both when someone is THAT close to you.

Maybe not a popular take but I'm sure Kevin is feeling conflicted on how to feel considering Jesse and him are so close.

 

I'm sure that there's something to be said about this but this new scene isn't my scene, if it makes any sense. I'm glad she is outspoken with social issues, although the first impressions.

To elaborate: no one is asking to the social death of anyone. No one is putting Lacey or Brand New in a corner. They put themselves into a corner. Lacey did that to himself and the band's silence is deafening because if they actually could say they were surprised and sorry, if Sherman or others couldn't speak up saying that they are lying, they would have said something. So I'm not sure what Lauren and Kevin think, but to me this doesn't seem like a moral dillema.

I mean, Lacey is safe from real world law, at least right now. Watkins wasn't, hence why he is in prison. I don't think I can grasp forgiveness for Watkins and I never cared about that dude's music other than a friend say "check this out" and I thought eh so edgy and that's it and that's long back when. Should I "forgive" Watkins? Should I "forgive" Lacey and Brand New? First, who he owes apologies is to his vicitims, but as far as I'm concerned, I don't need to forgive either, and I especially don't need to forgive Lacey because those songs one day mattered to me. That's a band that once I was fan of, and while there's anger for what he has done, I really don't like to feel fooled. If anyone wants to forgive anyone, that's not my say. I just know for sure that I wouldn't forgive Lacey like I wouldn't forgive Watkins or the Las Vegas dude or other people that made shit that I find it vile.

I don't feel like I'm carrying anger inside me regarding being fooled. Shame maybe, but not anger. So yeah, while I get what she and Devine seem to be thinking, that's not something that I'm considering. They are expelled from my head. From me caring. That's different than hate. What I do care is the victims getting heard and whoever did similar stuff getting their reckoning. The rest I couldn't care less.

 

yeah I don't think he's trying to figure out how to 'let him off the hook" but I do think he's thinking about what jesse needs to do to be forgiven.

I don't think we know what that looks like, there hasn't been any accountability in any of these reports from famous people yet, mostly just sending them away, canceling their movies and shows, tour dates. what's the next step? what can they do that will be a positive step? is there any possible way they could ever do enough?

I'm sure for some people there is nothing they could ever do to gain forgiveness and that's up to the person I think.

 

that's sort of the point though. it's about the victims to decide what is proper accountability in cases, not us. obviously accountability depends on the situation, but do you think in literally every single case of abuse a person should not be allowed back into music scenes? is there nothing they can do to show that they genuinely changed and their actions of the past don't mean who they actually are now? i haven't figured out my own thoughts on that specific matter yet, and i think that's the discussion that everyone is struggling with

 

as someone very involved with local DIY scenes, that aspect is actually an important topic of discussion. example: prominent member of the DIY scene is exposed as an abuser, actions they did two years ago. does this mean they can't ever go to shows again or be in bands and be accepted? what can they do to reenter and regain trust, both by the victims and the community?

 

I'm not going to lump every single person who has done something wrong together in the same column. that's shortsighted I think.

in watkins case he's in jail where he belongs, the LV shooter is dead, there's not really anything he can do.

as for jesse there may not be legal consequences to face, and he's still alive. the lack of a precedent of what looks like accountability and rehabilitation for these types of things is the question. he's still a person who has a family and needs to figure out what he needs to do to continue living. we're just asking what those things are he could do to earn that forgiveness from us the fans, the forgiveness from the victims is something they will need to decide if they ever could forgive.

 

Man, we live in an age that I used to sing "Look at your game, girl" that Guns recorded and that was written by Charles fucking Manson as a kid because I couldn't possibly know better. I don't think it's possible to "ban" someone from a music scene, at least not completely. What I can do is choose what I listen or not, which bands I follow or not, who I endorse or not. I think some mod here made a point the other day about Brand New fans needing to understand that this will follow this band whenever you say that you like the band and their songs. I don't think it's fair with the fans that are too attached to unplug or the ones that go back and forgive. But it is what is.

All I have control is how I react to the world, not others.

 

This isn't necessarily related to the comment but doesn't Lauren use gender neutral pronouns?


As for the topic at hand, accountability and justice is absolutely a difficult topic to truly figure out answers for, and it's especially hard to talk about the general when we're right in the middle of a specific case. I don't think we have any reason to believe that Jesse specifically is being held truly accountable or has done anything ever to better himself or the scene and instead has profited from the pain he has caused tons of people. Maybe we can say that everyone deserves the chance to redeem themselves, but I don't think they deserve any place in these spaces until they make major steps towards healing what they've done, and even that should only be on a case by case basis.

Restorative justice is incredibly difficult on even a private scale, and asking entire scenes to take part when it might make some people feel incredibly unsafe may be next to impossible. Also I agree that as long as everyone involved in this is completely silent on calling off their terrifying mob of fans attacking these women there's no way to offer any hope of reconciliation with the scene.

 

The full quote from the MTV article she links to about Me vs Maradona:

"I'm a big soccer fan and [Argentine striker Diego] Maradona is kind of like the Elvis of the soccer world," he explained. "He was a star and then he let the world get to him, and then he was this washed-up figure, but he had these shining moments when his old magic came out. And I can totally see myself — maybe 10 years down the road — ending up the same way, becoming this washed-up figure who used to be great and who isn't really anymore. I can't imagine anything more awful than that."

 

it's definitely possible to "ban" someone from the music scene, i've seen it happen many times. look at pwr bttm. look at unraveler (dakota bahney). look at anthony sanders (island for misfit toys). it happens. especially in DIY communities there's definitely a community effort that's needed to figure out how to handle this sort of thing

 

they might, i apologize if i misgendered.

 

just going to rehash this statement because i've been talking about community awareness and decisions but OBVIOUSLY the most important response is from the victims. the thing that stood out most about the franken thing is that the victim publicly forgave him based on his apology. to me, that's what really matters the most.

 

completely agree with this. how do you exile a family member, brother, lifelong friend? I don't think you do really, you try to help them, make them fix their mistakes and make them better people. you don't cut and run.

yeah I agree with what you said about franken's statement. it was probably the most effective statement I've seen.

 

Yeah I double-checked and they do. Weird thing is the end of the article I was checking to make sure I didn't have bad info starts talking about Science Fiction and Can't Get It Out. The world is still a small place.

 

While I agree with all of this, it's not like if Lacey went to jail I'd forgive him either. The accountability he gets from me, it's my "fuck you, Jesse Lacey" and it's the end. I'm not judging who thinks differently, as people will not react equally to this. He going to jail or not is pointless. Watkins is a monster. Lacey is a predator. I don't feel like measuring who did worst, but as far as I go, both are trash and it's not with their livelihood that I'm worried now. I do think fans organizing their thoughts about this it's important, and if I came across as cutting the conversation, I apologize. I'm an old fart, I feel like more an outsider that can't recognize most of the new names from bands, but since this is about someone from "my" scene and someone that I used to be fan of, I feel like saying my piece.

 

yeah, and that's part of why i feel people's obsession with vilifying every single person who still stays around specific abusers might be a bit misguided. it's about that works. you can support your friend and still be very critical and help them with the accountability process, including not giving them platforms for social applause. that's the more important part here. i'm sure kevin wants to do what he can to help jesse without giving him any positive support from the scene.