Why I Deleted the Recent Makeout Video Post • Page 23

the thing people don't seem to get is that it's okay to have your own boundaries on what you consider problematic but it's important to know that it is problematic or at least be open to hear why it might be rather than getting defensive about it

 

And this normalization of racism/sexism/abelism/etc. is why many of us find it important to point it out. Even if it means we'll get called names/attacked online for it, and even though most of us have seen the same bad arguments thrown out a thousand times, and even if it means we sign up for two days reading a thread full of posts we can probably predict down to the exact language used.

 

Just catching up on this and guess what? Plenty of pop punk bands are able to write break up songs without slut shaming and talking about watching porn on their iPhone. Fuck this band, they're not even remotely good.

 

Exactly

Everyone at some point enjoys a form of art (or product or whatever) with offensive/problematic behavior behind the people creating it. But that doesn't mean it's free from criticism.

Shit I love the Houston Texans but I can criticize the hell out of our bullshit playcalls (or our owner supporting Trump or football in general)

 

Here we arrive at the exact problem. It is not bad to be angry that you were wronged, to write songs about it, to create art based on your feelings. It is very bad to do so with slurs, threats of abuse, revenge, etc. There is room for nuance in these conversations. When you decide it can't be that bad and everyone is just "overreacting", you're robbing yourself of understanding the issue at all.

Example: it is good that Hayley Williams wrote songs dealing with her relationships. It is bad that she used the word "whore." She recognized and apologized for buying into the culture that toxic masculinity and misogyny created in our scene.

Example 2: it is not okay that Pete Wentz wrote Fall Out Boy's most famous, toxic lyrics about a 15 year old girl. There is no way to make those songs okay because regardless of anything that girl did, she was a victim of an adult man grooming her for a relationship she could never hope to be an equal in. She was set up for failure from the start.

I could go on. The reason you've never thought twice about, and most likely the reason your friends never has, is because you don't have personal experience with the way these things impact women. Or, you don't want to acknowledge the nuances. A lot of people just plain don't want to admit that things they like are problematic or harmful. Society created this culture and we have all been groomed into it. It takes willpower and learning to untangle yourself, to see past your kneejerk reaction of "it's just a word, it's just art" etc.

 

Well said.

 

I totally forgot about the whore line in Misery Business.

 

that's pretty much the nail on the head especially the last paragraph.

 

I will say that the comments like "my fave had problematic lyrics BUT" are really annoying. It's like... but my faves were never THIS bad. They probably were, lbr.

 

Truth. I think the thing with this is what Casey has said about learning to realize this and grow and expect more from those artists now and new artists in the music scene.

 

i don't think anyone expects everyone to be perfect. but i mean, they can at least be thoughtful of viewpoints that others have that they might not have realized in the first place

 

I don't get why people think there's so much shame in being wrong sometimes. Like...if tons of people are saying the lyrics are harmful, maybe they're not just words? I don't know why people aren't willing to just listen to others and maybe take something from it. I'm definitely with you.

 

i'm not saying it's "okay" that they put the song out at all, but if they had a very different reaction to the tweets about it maybe we wouldn't be looking at the band with eternal condemnation for the future and maybe felt hopeful about future releases.

 

My girlfriend knew of this band (but wasn't a fan), and I just showed her this song and we had a discussion about it. If you think this stuff doesn't affect women, and doesn't make them feel degraded then you should have seen her reaction. This doesn't just offend his ex, it clearly offends women everywhere.

 

There are so many bands in that scene that have redirected their views and lyrics to convey similar messages while still being tasteful and not misogynistic. It's not hard, you just have to grow up and not be shitty.

 

I've read these lyrics a couple times now. As a whole, the song is lame and terrible. But I'm curious why the huge backlash. The guy calls someone who cheated on him and sleeping around on him a whore and a bitch. Isn't that the definition of those words? Someone did that to me and those were the nicest words I could think of. It led to a divorce. And all he says is he's gonna tell people what she did. That's the extend if the "revenge." No violence. No other threats. Explain it. Cause I've been in this situation. I don't see writing a song about these feelings and using a few vulgar words as the worst thing ever. I understand. Cause when I found out my 13 year marriage fell apart cause of cheating and sleeping around I was feeling the same thing

 

Read the thread. You can be angry without being misogynistic.

 

There is some great discussion occurring in this thread. I grew up on the super violent and misogynistic lyrics from Saves the Day, Senses Fail, Fall Out Boy, etc. from the early 2000s. At that time, I was a teenager and my response to these songs was either (at best) not thinking critically about the lyrics or (at worst) thinking some of those songs were funny or clever.

Thanks to sites like this one, my thought processes radically changed as I grew older and more empathetic. I was an apathetic idiot with a very narrow world view throughout my teens and early twenties. That person embarrasses me. But, guess what, today I can admit that I was wrong.

The older I get, the more I truly appreciate when someone can simply say, "You know what, I was wrong and I will try my best to learn from this experience." There is no weakness in admitting wrong or backwards beliefs. It just shows empathy and intelligence.

 

I have read the thread and I don't see how those specific words in that specific song are misogynistic. They are describing a specific event and a specific person who actually did those things. How is that misogynistic if they describe real, true events? And again, no violence, no revenge. Just calling someone what they are because of what they did. As I said I've been there and experienced it. I wouldn't use those words in a song. But I used some choice adjectives when it all went down.

 

You and me both. But, we live in a time where Evangelicals elected a man who literally said he's never asked for God's forgiveness because he's never needed to.

 

You don't think "bitch" and "whore" are misogynistic?

 

*over 20 pages of people explaining over and over why the lyrics, video and general mentality of the song are bad*

*people coming into the thread still*: PlEasE eXpLaIn wHy ThE sOnG iS bAd!

 

Generally, yes. Except when someone does things to earn those titles, male, female, whoever, then no. I don't think you go around randomly throwing those words around. But there's a time and place for them. A very select time and place. But a time and place nonetheless. Five years ago I was in that place, too.

 

No, I dismiss people that have bad, or usually ill-intentioned "criticism." And the kind of people that create an account on my website specifically to publicly call me out with "open letters" instead of using something like an email or PM, often fall into that category. That said, I'm always open to intelligent criticism, it's how I learn, it's the pushback I crave ... it just actually has to be that.

Cross referencing some of the data from your account here with old AP.net logs, I have a pretty good idea who you are. I'm definitely not the exact same person I've always been. Not only is it just laughably untrue, when you start any conversation with someone, why would you think attacking them with accusations right off the bat would be the way to not be dismissed as "one of those people"? It's clear your intention here is not to reach out to me or talk to me, or help me see anything ... it's to attack me. And you start, immediately, by going at it on a personal level based on reading some words on my website. You don't know me, as a person.

If you actually read anything I've said here, or countless other places, you'd see I (and countless others) have already specifically addressed the this "song is no different from all the records we liked in the early 00's and now see as classics" argument. If you're going to make a claim like "very seldom bothering to actually get into it on a deep level to achieve an understanding" you can't follow it up with a sentence that shows you didn't even read this very thread before commenting. Your post is full of pseudo-babble intended to appear informed on a topic, your first argument is drawing an equivalence I've never denied or even pushed back against and have instead actively used as one base of reasoning for why I think it's important to talk about these things now.

Yes, I listened to the song.

My argument is against the song in totality, I've no reason to go line by line and say "this is fine, this is bad."

Yes, many of them did. I'll say it one more time and then I'm not going to keep repeating myself: someone doing something bad in the past, doesn't mean someone else doing something bad now is ok.

The banner ad I made for AP.net at the time was a picture of Pete, a sidekick, and the tag line "visit AP.net, yes we went(z) there." I banned people for posting links to the nudes, or making them their avatar. There's a big difference. However, you, again, trying to make something that happened a decade ago relevant to the current post is ridiculous. Regardless of your claim to the contrary, above: I'm not the same person I was a decade ago. I have completely different views, thoughts, and reactions to situations than I did when I was younger. And I change, evaluate, and shift my thoughts all the time.

Uh, ok? Thanks for sharing.

No idea what you're talking about here, nothing in my post says "it's 2017" — the only thing in this entire thread by me with "2017" in it is this post, where I was quoting someone else.

I mean, good for you, I guess? I, and the people I call my friends and family, have shifting thoughts and stances on things when new information is presented to us, or we mature, age, and are exposed to new ideas and ways of thinking or seeing the world. What you choose to do, or how you choose to live your life, and what your stances are ... totally up to you.

I said "look relatively young." And, to me, they look relatively young. I have no idea what their actual ages are. And I have no idea how this "shows where you're at as a human being" as you said nothing to explain this line of thought.

So why don't you put those factors out there and argue for them? Why is nothing in this entire post about what those factors are?

My "ideology" has never, and will never, make me feel like I'm contributing to the world.

This game where you make up things I haven't said, or would never say, and respond to them is weird. Is there a "ham-fisted" quota you need to fill for this post or something?

I never said differently. Being a moron about some shit early in my life, and probably still now, doesn't mean I was devoid of any sense of "justice, equality and compassion." You take one statement and decide to make it about something I never said and then conflate it to mean something else I never said. It's disingenuous at best.

This feels like projection. Anyway, here's a podcast from over 2 years ago where I recommend a podcast talking about this very effect. I'm aware of this cognitive bias. Thanks for the Wikipedia article.

Then why didn't you actually make a point? You wrote a lot, but there's no actual meat here. It's thin attacks at my character, some "whataboutthis," and the same argument made ten times in this thread about "look at the other people that did bad thing before." If you were making a larger point, it's not in the text. What is in the text is, "bands you liked did bad things, and I cared about these things longer than you." Great, wonderful. If that's all you wanted to say, you shoulda said it instead of this weird personal attack that meanders past pointless not long after the first comma.

 

Hmmmm...